14 replies to this topic

[Sharg]

This is the suggestion:

Convert a significant portion (50-75%) of the damage dealt by larger direct-fire weapons into splash damage, rather than pin-point damage.

As a review, current damage values look like this:

• PPC - 10 damage, mostly pin-point (I think there's some splash?)
  
• Gauss - 15 damage, entirely pin-point
  
• AC/20 - 20 damage, mostly pin-point (some splash?)

Now, this high pin-point damage was OK for the table top, because everything was random. Where you hit was random. Whether or not you hit was random.



But this is not a board game simulator, this is a 'mech simulator. In this game, most everything is skill based. You can (for the most part) choose where your shots hit.

Since these larger weapons deal so much pin point damage, it becomes quicker, in most cases, to aim for the CT and kill the opponent in one or two shots, rather than destroy other sections. This eliminates the need for the whole mechanic of different 'mech body parts. You might as well have one central section called "torso" and put all the armor there. Now, that is a bit of a generalization, as there are exceptions to this, like when an Atlas' torso is nearly gone, or if a Jager is sporting an XL, etc. But for the most part, damage is being focused on the CT.

The new values may look something like this:

• PPC - 3 direct damage - 7 splash damage across 5m
  
• Gauss - 7 direct damage - 8 splash damage across 5m
  
• AC/20 - 8 direct damage - 12 splash damage across 5m

Etc. These are just example values, of course.




This may have several effects on the game's meta:

• Smaller weapons will have the advantage of dealing more direct damage, creating a trade-off between size and pin-point accuracy. Lasers, especially pulse lasers, and small caliber autocannons will be more effective at destroying body locations and getting quick kills.
  
• One-shot kills will be more difficult, and will require a mixture of different weapons, rather than boating a single kind.
  
• Larger weapons will be used primarily for DPS, rather than as "finishers"

The tactics for using these new weapon values would probably look something like this: 'Mechs use PPCs and Gauss Rifles, along with LRMs, to pound enemies at range, softening up targets and exposing internal structure. As the two sides close, more pin-point weapons such as pulse lasers and smaller autocannons would be used to destroy exposed sections and core enemy 'mechs. Medium 'mechs, light 'mechs, and brawlers would find a niche as "finishers" who exploit weaknesses for quick kills.


Please, don't fill this thread with cries of "PGI can't do splash damage right! Look at missiles!". I'm certain they'll get that stuff worked out. Let's not make this a bunch of criticism. I think this is an idea that deserves discussion, and wouldn't be difficult for PGI, considering that the mechanics are already there.

Edit: Removed the poll since this was more of a discussion anyways.

Edited by Sharg, 05 June 2013 - 03:20 PM.

[Cpt Leprechaun]

Possibly However I would prefer the weapons to just not all hit the exact same location. by means of a spread fire perhaps 2 of those 6 PPCs you just fired missed ?

[RadioKies]

The idea is kinda interesting but I don't know if it should be added. If it would make it into the head of the devs maybe make it something more like: direct2/3-splash1/3

• PPC - 7 direct damage - 3 splash damage across 5m
  
• Gauss - 15 direct damage - 0 splash damage across 5m (it's an solid metal slug made for pinpoint damage)
  
• AC/20 - 14 direct damage - 6 splash damage across 5m.

[Sharg]

Cpt Leprechaun, on 05 June 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Possibly However I would prefer the weapons to just not all hit the exact same location. by means of a spread fire perhaps 2 of those 6 PPCs you just fired missed ?

Well, that would create the same effect, in a way (spreading out damage). But then you'd be introducing a level of randomness to the game that the designers have clearly been trying to avoid. Also, introducing a random hit generator like this would mean creating a whole new algorithm and mechanic that does not exist right now.

RadioKies, on 05 June 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

The idea is kinda interesting but I don't know if it should be added. If it would make it into the head of the devs maybe make it something more like: direct2/3-splash1/3

• PPC - 7 direct damage - 3 splash damage across 5m
  
• Gauss - 15 direct damage - 0 splash damage across 5m (it's an solid metal slug made for pinpoint damage)
  
• AC/20 - 14 direct damage - 6 splash damage across 5m.

The values were just examples, and would have to be decided by the devs, obviously. And although I know that the gauss slug is a solid metal object hurling at hypersonic speed, this game doesn't necessarily have to be realistic in all aspects. I mean, we're talking about a video game with giant 20 meter tall robots? That's why I advocate making splash damage the norm for all high damage, direct fire weapons, to prevent the meta from becoming centered around a single weapon system like the Gauss Rifle, since it would be the most efficient insta-killer.

Edited by Sharg, 05 June 2013 - 02:55 PM.

[Cpt Leprechaun]

RadioKies, on 05 June 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

The idea is kinda interesting but I don't know if it should be added. If it would make it into the head of the devs maybe make it something more like: direct2/3-splash1/3

• PPC - 7 direct damage - 3 splash damage across 5m
  
• Gauss - 15 direct damage - 0 splash damage across 5m (it's an solid metal slug made for pinpoint damage)
  
• AC/20 - 14 direct damage - 6 splash damage across 5m.

I like these number values more but still support what I said before.

[malibu43]

I voted "No", but they're weren't horrible ideas.

I'm just more in favor of removing uber-convergence.

[Cpt Leprechaun]

malibu43, on 05 June 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

I voted "No", but they're weren't horrible ideas.

I'm just more in favor of removing uber-convergence.

this

[Sharg]

malibu43, on 05 June 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

I voted "No", but they're weren't horrible ideas.

I'm just more in favor of removing uber-convergence.

True. This is just an alternative, in case there's something internal that prevents them from changing the convergence. As I understand it, convergence changes to the point at which your aimer is pointing. Maybe the solution is to change the convergence circle from being a pin point to a circle about 5m in diameter?

However, they've stated time and time again that they want to avoid introducing any sort of arbitrary randomness to the game. So I offereed this suggestion instead.

Edited by Sharg, 05 June 2013 - 03:14 PM.

[RadioKies]

Doing the converge thing makes this game into a Console/CoD/Halo game that we can play with our 360 controllers.. There won't be any mouse skill left. It's the reason why I still enjoy (i.e.) Unreal Tournament 1 more than most FPS games these days. Also, when I first started playing (and kinda still now) it's hard enough to aim at the spot what you're trying to damage, now you wan't to make it even worse? No thank you.

[Sharg]

RadioKies, on 05 June 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

Doing the converge thing makes this game into a Console/CoD/Halo game that we can play with our 360 controllers.. There won't be any mouse skill left. It's the reason why I still enjoy (i.e.) Unreal Tournament 1 more than most FPS games these days. Also, when I first started playing (and kinda still now) it's hard enough to aim at the spot what you're trying to damage, now you wan't to make it even worse? No thank you.

Agreed. Its either splash damage or convergence as I see it, and convergence adds randomness I don't want. I was simply agreeing with malibu that it needs to be one or the other to solve massive pin-point alpha striking. But I'd rather that they do this instead.

[Renthrak]

An interesting approach, but it doesn't seem like splash damage works as intended in MWO.

[Miken]

Hmm.. simple accuracy factor for weapon in dependence of mech's speed is better idea.

Edited by Miken, 05 June 2013 - 08:36 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

I'm pretty happy with weapons balance as it is. Some minor tweaks here and there are needed...

For example, I'd like to see small pulse lasers get some love to make them stand out from standard small lasers a little more and maybe some more heat reduction in standard large lasers...but whatever. Overall, I think it's good.

tl;dr:
Touch my AC/20 and you'll pull back a bloody stump.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 05 June 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[zraven7]

No, no no no no.

I already have Streaks caving in my front CT from the back, I don't need 3 other weapons doing it too.

This would be Armageddon on lights. no no no.

[Sharg]

Ok, I've thought about this, and I agree, its not a great idea. I didn't really consider what it would do to light 'mechs, who are especially vulnerable to splash damage. In fact, now that I think about it, splash damage in general is a bad idea, and should probably just be removed from the game (except maybe for Artillery or Air Strikes, obviously).

As another possible solution, how about moving the convergence point of weapons to be slightly behind a target, by about 10-20 meters, or the height of a Commando? It would be a simple tweak that PGI can make, and wouldn't introduce any randomness, something they are very keen to avoid.

I started a thread on this other suggestion.