81 replies to this topic

[Lefty Lucy]

Almost all of the kills in the video are either on the ground, or well after the apex of your jump.

[TungstenWall]

Poptarting should be a unique tactic used by pilots with rare skills to compensate for shaking to take advantage of cover/est.

Poptart should be reference to a player's skill, not how a mech is built (other than JJs).
I dont want to see poptarting removed from the game, just to see it not become the only way to DFS. Im glad some players are still able to play them.

[Trauglodyte]

Lefty Lucy, on 06 June 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

Almost all of the kills in the video are either on the ground, or well after the apex of your jump.

THat's the point. Good jump snipers only ever shot at the top of the apex or the way down. For all of the bitching about this post, the good players just continued on doing what they were doing OR did the smart thing and used the arm lock toggle to minimize the impact. Everyone else bitching was either terrible at it or was dependent upon the random 500-1000m jump kills with PPC/Gauss overloads. Soy's vid, which was awesome btw, just pointed out that you can still be effective if you play it smart and utilize all of the mechanics available. Nothing needs to change with the nerf cause it is working.

PS> Kudos for the inclusion of "Wargames" and "Short Circuit".

[Lefty Lucy]

Trauglodyte, on 06 June 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

THat's the point. Good jump snipers only ever shot at the top of the apex or the way down. For all of the bitching about this post, the good players just continued on doing what they were doing OR did the smart thing and used the arm lock toggle to minimize the impact. Everyone else bitching was either terrible at it or was dependent upon the random 500-1000m jump kills with PPC/Gauss overloads. Soy's vid, which was awesome btw, just pointed out that you can still be effective if you play it smart and utilize all of the mechanics available. Nothing needs to change with the nerf cause it is working.

PS> Kudos for the inclusion of "Wargames" and "Short Circuit".

IMO with the way he was playing, he'd be more effective if he just swapped the JJ out for a bigger engine and more DHS.

[Mechteric]

I hate to be a terrible person sometimes, but I'm pretty sure this video is the result of the patented "Random Clip Maker 3000". Yikes, next time just video of gameplay please!

[Taemien]

Tor6, on 06 June 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

The real (unintended) victims of this change were people who used them for laser brawling at ~150-300 meters. 1 second duration means you better start DAMN high in the air if you wanna actually land any damage when you let the jets off. Sure you might be able to hit -something- with the jets on, but you'll vomit damage all over the mech if you do that and it's basically wasted heat. It'll work if you're point blank, but that's not really a scenario worth considering since anything can hit accurately at that range. And no, the lasers actually don't shoot straight at the crosshair when you're jetting, so blutac on screen is a bad idea.

Fighting people on hills/slopes (like on alpine) in a catapult has now become extraordinarily irksome thanks to all torso mounted energy hardpoints and the inability to aim with any real precision while hovering (to actually bring enemies above/below you within your torsos limited elevation/depression range). NERF HILLS >:C

This is intended. Weapons fired from torsos shouldn't have just as an easy time as those fired from the arms. I noticed I can still hit things with my Catapult lasers even jumping but before landing my lasers drag straight down the mech.. still hitting the intended location, but not quite the spot I intended. I don't see anything wrong with this. Those lasers are in the torso. They are back up weapons at best.

All this change does is make jump brawlers heavily consider what chassis they should use. Not everything with Jump Jets is a brawler. A Catapult is definitely not a brawler.

Guess this just made Pulse Lasers a heck of alot nicer for brawling, they don't need a full second on target.

[Coolant]

I've played in roughly 16 matches since the patch, and I've seen 2 jumpsnipers - not 2 games with jumpsnipers, but 2 jumpsnipers period. Obviously, it is much harder so just that has brought balance. Good job PGI.

[Lefty Lucy]

Coolant, on 06 June 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

I've played in roughly 16 matches since the patch, and I've seen 2 jumpsnipers - not 2 games with jumpsnipers, but 2 jumpsnipers period. Obviously, it is much harder so just that has brought balance. Good job PGI.

So "balance" is the same as "does not exist?"

[Trauglodyte]

Lefty Lucy, on 06 June 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

IMO with the way he was playing, he'd be more effective if he just swapped the JJ out for a bigger engine and more DHS.

I would agree with this.

Lefty Lucy, on 06 June 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

So "balance" is the same as "does not exist?"

Classic example of people relying on a broken crutch and then running from the hills once it is fixed. Furthermore, while that is only anecdotal evidence, it speaks to the power of "word of mouth" and people jumping up and down or even moving away from something before even testing it. You'd think that if we had something like a test server where you could go and practice that people wouldn't be so pathetic and drastic. Oh wait, we have a test server and people are still lame!

[Tombstoner]

Lefty Lucy, on 06 June 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

So "balance" is the same as "does not exist?"

it may have been overly Nerfed and i hate pop tarting with an unholy passion. What i see happening is people are no longer able to pop tart at long range. pop tarting is still viable as it should be. but i think its been shifted to a brawler tacit. where high heat builds are self defeating since your too close to the opfor for it to be safe. all in all i am happy with the changes so far. its not because i get killed by pop tarting its a valid tatic.. just not in the context of pin point aiming that exploits a missing part of the PRS.

PGI added 2 things to balance it out .... lots of bouncing and targeting off set. i think the knock around should be the same as being hit by a massive amount of lrm or 2 x ac20's something that everyone experiences not something so special that only JJ uses face.

In summary pop tarting snipers is not good for the long term health of the game and PGI made a choice that can be modified later with more data.

[Lefty Lucy]

Honestly, I don't have a horse in this race. I'll use what's good, or what I find fun, and am willing to change with various balance patches.

I just think the claims that jump sniping is still good are silly, because it's so obviously not a worthwhile tactic any more.

[Soy]

Lefty Lucy, on 06 June 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

IMO with the way he was playing, he'd be more effective if he just swapped the JJ out for a bigger engine and more DHS.

You can't get a bigger engine than 340XL bro. Also at the moment this build is using 18 DHS, same as before even the AMS patch, it's just right now using a ton less armor off the legs and arms (so like, 44/43 on those). Without AMS it's full armor [432], 18 DHS, and 340 [largest] with 0 crit slots left over. Depending on either of those, it's either 2 JJs or 4 JJs that I'm using.

Regarding your comment about most kills being on the ground, nah. Go ahead and count; I think it's 14 of the kills are while JJing. Out of about 30-35 of the kills. So, roughly half. However, yes - the majority of JJ shots are taken right before hitting ground. Some of the shots taken while JJing, I certainly didn't need to JJ but the point was to get clips of kill shots while JJing, to show the viability of it still. Regarding firing so close to grounding, well, need all the extra time for convergence while descending. You can't fire on ascent like before unless it's within brawl range really, which I showed severa times.

CapperDeluxe - It's result of lots of spacejoints and windows movie maker, I do audio as a hobby for a while, this past week is first time I ever put any time into a video, so I went all out for having fun cuz usually I just take footage, slap it on, and crank it out without any thought to aesthetics; never took it serious. I'll try and make the next video, if theres another one like this, revolve around the MWO action more.

[Lefty Lucy]

Soy, on 06 June 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Regarding your comment about most kills being on the ground, nah. Go ahead and count; I think it's 14 of the kills are while JJing. Out of about 30-35 of the kills. So, roughly half. However, yes - the majority of JJ shots are taken right before hitting ground. Some of the shots taken while JJing, I certainly didn't need to JJ but the point was to get clips of kill shots while JJing, to show the viability of it still.

Which is exactly my point. The fact that you had jump jets equipped didn't actually give you any tactical advantage. What few jump shots you took were near the ground anyways, so they were effectively just trick shots.

[Soy]

I think they give mobility and positioning advantage. They shouldn't be giving shooting advantage; in fact, the opposite. Thusly, the nerf we just saw.

Anyone who was doing nothing but jumping straight up and down wasn't really playing the real game anyways.

I'll settle for that semantical bit at the end; word.

[NRP]

Soy, on 06 June 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

I think they give mobility and positioning advantage. They shouldn't be giving shooting advantage . . . .

Very well said, and I agree. While I think the degree to which PGI implemented the screen/reticle shake may be a bit excessive, I think this change is a step in the right direction.

[Lefty Lucy]

Soy, on 06 June 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

I think they give mobility and positioning advantage.

I don't think they give enough of a mobility and positioning advantage to justify their mass for anything but a light or medium mech. You can go up most hills faster without jumping, and even on Canyon network nearly every slope has spots that a non-jumping mech can walk right up.

PGI needs to look at giving them another boost to their initial impulse to make them worth it for maneuverability.

[blinkin]

PEEFsmash, on 06 June 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

What a foolish post. There is built-in randomness in the shot, and jumpjetting on the ascent and hitting certain components from 270 is no longer feasible, not only because of the built in randomness, but because of the shake you can't even tell what you hit.

i love how people have been telling me that i have been doing impossible things for the past two days. am i really that super human?

[Soy]

Lefty Lucy, on 06 June 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

I don't think they give enough of a mobility and positioning advantage to justify their mass for anything but a light or medium mech. You can go up most hills faster without jumping, and even on Canyon network nearly every slope has spots that a non-jumping mech can walk right up.

PGI needs to look at giving them another boost to their initial impulse to make them worth it for maneuverability.

I definitely disagree with your first paragraph. I think of good JJ use as like having an unguardable release point like some of the best basketball players have had. Dirk Nowitski, MJ, Reggie Miller, Kobe. All the greatest jump shooters release their shot from a position that is unguardable except by the best defenders. It's never the same for different players, just like MWO. You have to play dynamic. Sometimes it's an early shot, sometimes it's very late.

It's same thing with JJs, still. It's tougher to get the shots off but you can still do it. Again though I say anyone was doing nothing but jumping up and down in same spot alphaing from 800m out wasn't really interacting with the game on a deeper level than spacebar when crosshairs are aligned. It's more interactive now, and if they get SRMs and stuff raised, then you'll see more snipers having trouble dictating range...

You have to dictate range and LoS with JJs rather than just abuse bunny hopping... I try and do that in my 3D.

The last part though I agree. I miss the old boost. I think they could get a lil bit of an oomph than they have right now. Maybe the more you equip, the more boost you get in exchange for more shake.

Edited by Soy, 06 June 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[DeadlyNerd]

As much as I'd like to point out how many times the OP failed his jump shots at practically standing targets, each within 200m he makes a valid point against every single whiner against added JJ features.

The whole point of this "nerf" is to force anyone who wants to poptart to either get max height for maximum chance at hitting something while falling, or get some skill and time your shots better.

[Soy]

I hate to be metaphorical cuz it sounds pretentious, but whatever -

the MWO scene before the poptart dancer, and the part where she lands wrong, then gets back up and keeps going... is symbolic of the changing meta and adapting your playstyle to whatever changes you face in the game. if you struggle then keep pushing to better yourself or look at it as an opportunity to develop a different skill... you can't poptart the exact same way as before and you can't snipe effectively while doing it, but you can still push the skills you've developed in those areas into the shorter ranges and different angles that begin to crop up as a result of the shifting meta... if everything stayed the same regardless of changes then we'd have a boring game or a boring community, i'm satisfied with the development and hope it continues to get better and forces us to become more dynamic players as a result... sniping lives, poptarting lives, and brawling is coming back into the fray...

Edited by Soy, 06 June 2013 - 01:59 PM.