43 replies to this topic

[Neolisk]

Pater Mors, on 07 June 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

I feel my point still stands though, that Hero Mech's are not P2W. The other Stalker chassis all have their strengths and Misery is not over powered compare to any of them (point in case being that I fear Jag's on the field much more than a Stalker of any variant). You still have to worry about ammo consumption for your main weapon, where a 4x PPC Stalker does not.

Yes, you are right about ammo. However, heat is a big problem for any other Stalker build, bigger than ammo. They just fail miserably on hot maps, to almost any mech variant (my experience, call me a bad pilot). Adding a ballistic slot makes them viable on hot maps. Brawler-wise a Stalker is better than a Jagermech because it's harder to hit CT, so they have increased life expectancy on the battlefield. Meaning yes, Jags have more DPS, but Stalker will live longer. My opinion is that with this build (let's call it UAC5 Misery), a Stalker can stand against an ACXX Atlas or Highlander. Otherwise it will be ripped to pieces in close combat. Which is an argument towards it being P2W. Okay it's not a kind of P2W where you pay and immediately win. But don't you agree that it gives you an advantage, compared to other Stalker variants? We also forgot about CT-mountable large laser, so you can deliver a punch with both sides taken out (similar to 5M).

[Volthorne]

Neolisk, on 07 June 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Yes, you are right about ammo. However, heat is a big problem for any other Stalker build, bigger than ammo. They just fail miserably on hot maps, to almost any mech variant (my experience, call me a bad pilot). Adding a ballistic slot makes them viable on hot maps. Brawler-wise a Stalker is better than a Jagermech because it's harder to hit CT, so they have increased life expectancy on the battlefield. Meaning yes, Jags have more DPS, but Stalker will live longer. My opinion is that with this build (let's call it UAC5 Misery), a Stalker can stand against an ACXX Atlas or Highlander. Otherwise it will be ripped to pieces in close combat. Which is an argument towards it being P2W. Okay it's not a kind of P2W where you pay and immediately win. But don't you agree that it gives you an advantage, compared to other Stalker variants? We also forgot about CT-mountable large laser, so you can deliver a punch with both sides taken out (similar to 5M).

Again, debatable. I ran a 3F for a bit, with a mixed long/short range loadout and had almost no heat problems (I'd supply a smurfy link except the computer I'm on right now doesn't allow smurfy due to flash-player issues), while still dishing out quite a punch at all ranges. The reason Stalkers seem so hot is because everyone's boating the biggest laser weapons they can find (such as ERPPCs) because high-alphas are currently one of the better "tactics".

Also, Stalkers will typically outlive ANY Atlas or Highlanders because of it's huge side-torso shields and the damage-transfer bug currently in-play. That's not a feature unique to the Misery. I would also take any Stalker against any Atlas or Highlander any day because you can front-load all the armor in MOST situations. The Atlas and Highlander need to be more wary of their rear arcs than a Stalker does (if anything unfriendly is behind you while in a Stalker, you've done something horribly wrong).

[Sephlock]

Purely as an aside, I was so disappointed when I saw the Pretty Baby (because of how ugly it is), and even more disappointed when I saw that the loadout didn't include a ballistic slot or two. Or three. Or four.

[Sable Dove]

Just some info: the Misery is the only Stalker that can turn fast enough to shake an agile light off their back. Any other Stalker can be killed with impunity if caught by a good light, but the Misery turns fast enough that it's near impossible to stay out of reach indefinitely. It's the only Stalker I won't engage by myself in my JR7/SDR, while any other Stalker needs assistance if I engage them.

So, against lights, at least, they have a significant advantage over the other Stalkers.

[Neolisk]

Volthorne, on 07 June 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

The reason Stalkers seem so hot is because everyone's boating the biggest laser weapons they can find (such as ERPPCs) because high-alphas are currently one of the better "tactics".

Also, Stalkers will typically outlive ANY Atlas or Highlanders because of it's huge side-torso shields and the damage-transfer bug currently in-play.

When I boat 4LL + some SRMS or LRMs (for 10 tons) - which is hardly boating, but anyway - I get killed often in a 1v1 fight against a well-piloted Highlander with an AC20 or Gauss, or an Atlas of a similar build. When I boat AC2s in Jager, after being yellowed by some random mechs, I managed to beat an Atlas and then a Highlander, both with nearly full health, 1v1. The point is that IMHO, ballistics are very powerful, if you know how to aim. With added bonus of Stalker's survivability, it makes it much more viable than a similar Highlander or an Atlas. Hence, P2W (well, sort of).

Show your build, for us to assess your solution to heat in a 3F.

Sable Dove, on 07 June 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Just some info: the Misery is the only Stalker that can turn fast enough to shake an agile light off their back.
[...]
So, against lights, at least, they have a significant advantage over the other Stalkers.

I did not know that. Yet another argument towards P2W.

[Blue Footed Booby]

Volthorne, on 06 June 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Because it's a bad idea? It's basically pirating. Why pay for a Monopoly-money boost and a bit of fake paint when you can get the same thing for free? Bye bye revenue, see you again in NEVER.
...

I try to be civil. I try not to use "judging language" when I disagree with people. I'm sorry, but this is a stupid thing to say.

Piracy is the illegal acquisition of belongings that are not yours. If PGI is selling their own products, it's not piracy.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you didn't mean what you actually typed, I agree that PGI would be undermining their own cash flow.

Edited by Blue Footed Booby, 07 June 2013 - 09:40 AM.

[Volthorne]

Blue Footed Booby, on 07 June 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

I try to be civil. I try not to use "judging language" when I disagree with people. I'm sorry, but this is a stupid thing to say.

Piracy is the illegal acquisition of belongings that are not yours. If PGI is selling their own products, it's not piracy.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you didn't mean what you actually typed, I agree that PGI would be undermining their own cash flow.

Yes, I know, "piracy" was the wrong word, but I dare say another one wouldn't have fit better, especially under the circumstances of what the OP is asking for. Regardless of it being PGI-sanctioned or not, he'd still be able to acquire software rights (in this case, the right to use a Hero Mech of his choosing) without paying the developers, whereas everyone who has a Hero Mech so far HAS paid that Developers for the right to use it.

Neolisk, on 07 June 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

When I boat 4LL + some SRMS or LRMs (for 10 tons) - which is hardly boating, but anyway - I get killed often in a 1v1 fight against a well-piloted Highlander with an AC20 or Gauss, or an Atlas of a similar build. When I boat AC2s in Jager, after being yellowed by some random mechs, I managed to beat an Atlas and then a Highlander, both with nearly full health, 1v1. The point is that IMHO, ballistics are very powerful, if you know how to aim. With added bonus of Stalker's survivability, it makes it much more viable than a similar Highlander or an Atlas. Hence, P2W (well, sort of).

Show your build, for us to assess your solution to heat in a 3F.

Again, smurfy won't work on this computer for technical issues. Wait for me to get home (another 4.5 hours) and I will post the build I used.

And if you're really losing to Highlanders and Atlai in everything but a Misery then you might want to pilot something other than a Stalker.

[Neolisk]

Volthorne, on 07 June 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

if you're really losing to Highlanders and Atlai in everything but a Misery then you might want to pilot something other than a Stalker.

I don't own a Misery, everything above are estimates, based on my Jagermech (S) experience. Having bought that, now need to learn not to die raging around, cause you can literally crush your opponents 1v1. Need to try 2xAC20 at some point, as that may end up being my favorite build.

[Deathlike]

Well, I wrote a competing thread about this here:
http://mwomercs.com/...f2p-hero-mechs/

[Adrienne Vorton]

Neolisk, on 07 June 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

. With added bonus of Stalker's survivability, it makes it much more viable than a similar Highlander or an Atlas. Hence, P2W (well, sort of).

Show your build, for us to assess your solution to heat in a 3F.

i dunno how many Miseries i had on my killcount aloone today... i drive a highlander (Ballistic/ energy/ssrm medium range setup) and currently a stalker N, with nearly the same setup i use on my 3F... 3LL 3MLAS and streaks or SRM´s (depends) + tons of DHS ...heat is managable with chainfire and if i´m not that stupid to always walk straight towards my targets, i manage to get high above the 500 damage mark in most matches, with at least 2 or more kills...and,as mentioned, often enough miseries... to me, they are just stalkers...good weapon platforms for sure, but that counts for all of them...

[Pater Mors]

Neolisk, on 07 June 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Yes, you are right about ammo. However, heat is a big problem for any other Stalker build, bigger than ammo. They just fail miserably on hot maps, to almost any mech variant (my experience, call me a bad pilot). Adding a ballistic slot makes them viable on hot maps. Brawler-wise a Stalker is better than a Jagermech because it's harder to hit CT, so they have increased life expectancy on the battlefield. Meaning yes, Jags have more DPS, but Stalker will live longer. My opinion is that with this build (let's call it UAC5 Misery), a Stalker can stand against an ACXX Atlas or Highlander. Otherwise it will be ripped to pieces in close combat. Which is an argument towards it being P2W. Okay it's not a kind of P2W where you pay and immediately win. But don't you agree that it gives you an advantage, compared to other Stalker variants? We also forgot about CT-mountable large laser, so you can deliver a punch with both sides taken out (similar to 5M).

No I don't agree really, because I see stalkers doing well on every map in every variant. I see other variants destroy Misery. All that comes down to is straight up pilot skill. I believe Stalkers took out the last tournament in the Assault group too and I am reasonably sure it wasn't a Misery (I could be wrong there).

I would love to vs your build in my 733C (2x UAC5, 2x LL, 2x SRM6). I eat Stalkers for breakfast if the pilot makes even a small mistake. My best match I took on a Misery and an Atlas and beat both of them, and that was a really good match, not a 8v0 stomp (lasted for 8 minutes and came down to 2v2. I scored 1000+ damage and ran out of ammo for all my ammo based weapons). That is why all the arguments around P2W fail. If it was even close to P2W I should be losing nearly every single fight I have with Misery or Heavy Metal but as it stands I genuinely fear a properly kitted Jaeger with a competent pilot far more than I do a Stalker.

What people think of as P2W here is really just a variant that is different because people are paying real $ for it and in my opinion anyone who is willing to support the game with their hard earned money deserves to get something different that no free player can ever have access to, as long as it is not truly pay to win.

Edit: I would never call you a bad pilot because I don't think we've ever had a match together. And even if we did and you sucked, I still wouldn't because I try to be a nice guy in-game.

Edited by Pater Mors, 07 June 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[Alex Warden]

it´s just jealousy, everyone with a clear mind knows heroes aren´t anyway near P2W ...all the p2w arguments just base upon "waaah i want one, for free"...

[HiplyRustic]

Dear OP:

No.

You are completely wrong and your argumentation skills are worse than suspect. I read the "justification" thread and it's apparent you think something is PTW which is demonstrably not.

There are perhaps two Hero mechs that give a quantifiable advantage, and even that...with the triple UAC5 Jager now a reality and contending with the Ilya in that space...is arguable.

This proposal is a hammer running around in search of a non-existent nail.

[Zerberus]

Neolisk, on 06 June 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

This build of Misery yields 7.38 consistent DPS. Still not OP/p2w? No other Stalker can give that, I challenge you!

Stalker, no. But any Atlas can run that exact same build, and add on another UAC, or 2 more lasers, or another LRM rack , without sacrificing heat efficiency, ammo, or armor.

SO does that make the Misery P2Lose? Because all Atlases are F2P (except the Founders, which is no longer available, and is still just a D w/ paint and a c-bill boost).

Edited by Zerberus, 08 June 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[Neolisk]

Zerberus, on 08 June 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

Stalker, no. But any Atlas can run that exact same build, and add on another UAC, or 2 more lasers, or another LRM rack , without sacrificing heat efficiency, ammo, or armor.

An Atlas can be more easily targeted at CT, and if the pilot is not careful, cored. Stalker is better in this aspect, especially at mid-range or further. Could be my experience though.

[Alex Warden]

Neolisk, on 08 June 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

An Atlas can be more easily targeted at CT, and if the pilot is not careful, cored. Stalker is better in this aspect, especially at mid-range or further. Could be my experience though.

believe me, stalkers are like sharks... they don´t really like a slap on their nose

but i tend to agree that they are slightly more durable than an atlas... but i guess that´s also based on personal preferance

Edited by Alex Warden, 09 June 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[Iacov]

Volthorne, on 06 June 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

It's basically pirating.

wha-wha-what? o_O

(not that i support this idea - but how could this be piracy? it's not like someone is taking something by force...)

[Volthorne]

Iacov, on 10 June 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

wha-wha-what? o_O

(not that i support this idea - but how could this be piracy? it's not like someone is taking something by force...)

If you actually bothered to continue reading the thread you would have seen my rationale behind using that term.

[IceSerpent]

Neolisk, on 06 June 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

This build of Misery yields 7.38 consistent DPS. Still not OP/p2w? No other Stalker can give that, I challenge you!

Uhm...255 engine, only 1 ton of UAC5 ammo in LT without CASE, 4 tons of LRM ammo in the legs with only 40 pts of armor to protect it...looks like a death trap to me...

[Neolisk]

IceSerpent, on 10 June 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Uhm...255 engine, only 1 ton of UAC5 ammo in LT without CASE, 4 tons of LRM ammo in the legs with only 40 pts of armor to protect it...looks like a death trap to me...

You can put an XL engine, I just used stock. 3 tons of UAC5 ammo actually, 2 LRM ammo in the legs. You can remove a DHS and put a case. Move some UAC ammo from legs in the remaining slots if you want. 40 pts of armor on each leg is pretty safe, from personal experience. You can, however, add more, if you put an XL engine. Here is another build (full armor, still almost 7 DPS), if it makes you feel more safe this way.

Edited by Neolisk, 10 June 2013 - 12:38 PM.