Livewyr, on 11 June 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:
You do realize you're making an unprovable claim right now, yes?
Of course, neither of us is going to come up with a scientific study showing the effects of public Elo on a population. This is why I've focused on the consequences.
What if you're right and people attempt use Elo ratings to browbeat people into submission? I really can't see it doing much damage. Trolls will be trolls and we can easily ignore them. If someone tries to dismiss someone solely because of an Elo rating then they are hurting their own credibility within the community of people who intelligently discuss the game.
What if I'm right though? The level of discourse is raised by the fact that players can understand the perspective from which they are all speaking.
Livewyr, on 11 June 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:
(And yes, the game is in a balance dumpster- it allows crappy players to capitalize on whatever the current overpowered/broken system in order to fluff their game.)
Example: Broken PPC stalker.
Example: (now cratering former poptarts)
Example: If my Elo wasn't high enough, I could just gather 3 friends, all hop into maxed speed, cap accel, spiders and win game after game within the first 3 minutes.. because the capture mechanic is broken.
Those crappy players are displaying a skill called valuation. Valuation is the ability to look at all of the assets available to you and determine which are better and which are worse. The players who unironically equip flamers are terrible at valuation.
David Sirlin speaks to this directly in his Playing to Win ebook:
Quote
“Appraisal” or “Valuation” is the ability to judge the relative value of different pieces, moves, tactics, or strategies in a game. This might be the most important skill in competitive games. If Yomi is understanding the opponent, then Appraisal is understanding the game itself.
In some sense, this skill is, by definition, what all competitive games are about. Games are about making decisions, which of course makes them about knowing the relative values of the pieces and situations in question. Some claim that “Appraisal” is just too obvious and basic a thing to place on such a high pedestal. But when I looked at all the best players of the games I know, this skill tied it all together for me.
The 'mech you drive and the weapons you use will only get you so far though because at the top tiers everyone is using those same assets.
Livewyr, on 11 June 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:
Giving stats for priority in speaking in such a broken and volatile balance situation, ABOUT the balance is a bad idea.
Devs don't listen as it is. (Despite being able to look at Elo) Proof of concept: Pub Elo would do nothing.
Players already get dismissed for being bad posters or raising illegitimate points. Proof of concept: Pub Elo would do nothing.
This is not about priority speaking, it is about fostering understanding of perspectives so that the level of discussion is raised above the dross that we currently have in most balance posts. Look at this post below responding in a thread raising the very valid concern that there is an increasing tendency for people to take more and more assault 'mechs over other weight classes simply because they can pack the most gear on.
Hellcat420, on 11 June 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:
this poll serious or a big troll? all mechs are viable in this game. just because you dont know how to properly use a certain mech does not mean its not viable. yes some mechs are better than others, but guess what, thats battletech. that does not change the fact that all mechs are viable.
This is more than likely a very likely a low Elo player, but he presumably wins about half of his games due to Elo matchmaking and therefore thinks he's about average. He is entering into a discussion about balancing weight classes, yet his contribution is that "everything is fine." From his perspective in the lower Elo brackets, I'm sure everything is fine. Or maybe what he's experiencing is the fact that the 'mechs he runs are so bad that people ignore them until the end, creating the illusion that he is effective. If we could actually know for sure that he's in the lower Elo brackets this would help the discussion very much. Maybe he's actually the best player in the world though and from his perspective all 'mechs are viable because everyone else in th game is so bad (this last part is actually his claim ("just because you don't know how to properly use a certain mech...").
Livewyr, on 11 June 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:
10 pages of this thread about insults and epeens already had to be removed. Proof of concept: Pub Elo would inflame further.
You point to the 10 removed pages, I point to th 27+ not removed pages containing good discussion as proof of concept that public Elo would raise the discussion further. Both are fairly asinine claims to be honest neither conclusion logically follows from the premise in any way.
PanzerMagier, on 11 June 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:
1. Chess is not a video game (exclusively)
You just asked for an example of a game, not an 'exclusive video game.' Be more specific in your question if you are going to be so narrow.
PanzerMagier, on 11 June 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:
2. I've seen my fair share of chess scum. I used to be a local champ... When politics mingled in, I stopped caring.
You'll see your fair share of scum in any game. Welcome to humanity.
PanzerMagier, on 11 June 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:
3. Chess does not have an ELO system. It's a simple win/loss ratio or win/loss total
At Least try to pretend like you understand what is important...
Elo is not an acronym, it is the last name of the man
who created this system specifically for chess. From Wikipedia:
Quote
Arpad Elo was a master-level chess player and an active participant in the United States Chess Federation (USCF) from its founding in 1939. The USCF used a numerical ratings system, devised by Kenneth Harkness, to allow members to track their individual progress in terms other than tournament wins and losses. The Harkness system was reasonably fair, but in some circumstances gave rise to ratings which many observers considered inaccurate. On behalf of the USCF, Elo devised a new system with a more sound statistical basis.
Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I'm ignorant or a troll. Open your mind to the fact that those disagreeing with you can be rational people with valid points, and address those points rather than attacking the person. It's a sign of maturity.
Huntsman, on 12 June 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:
Deity, we played together in MWLL, and you may have, like myself, played many mechwarrior games before that. While we all have isolated skills that we could prbably be marginally better at, you're more or less probably about as at the top of your game as you're going to get. We learned the skills and are familiar with the changes that have occured with this game that are old hat to us while the rest of the forum is poking them with a stick in wide eyed wonder.
Aside from a savant like Snowball (do you remember him?) showing up in MWO there's probably little that anyone has to teach you, and even then, someone like that...what he did I'm not sure we could even learn. He made the best players look green and I'm not sure even he could tell ya what he was doing.
Having said that, if a bunch of players are knocked down a peg in their own self estimates it may very well be a good for their growth if their pride doesn't get in their way, and I wholly support the release of ELO info.
BTW what team are you playing with these day xDeityx?
I appreciate it, but truth be told I'm actually really not that good of a player. I stood out a bit in MWLL because our community was so small (and therefore our talent pool) but in MWO I would be very surprised even if I started playing seriously that I would be among the top 1%. I'm 30 years old which is pretty much retirement age for competitive gamers, a 19-year-old will have too much of an advantage on me when it comes to reaction time (although it would be worse if this was a more reactionary FPS like Quake or CS) and just time to spend on the game in general since I've got two kids a wife and a job.
I've been playing with a random assortment of guys who were in KoS in MWLL and just other MWLLers in general, we hang out in the Knights channel on the NGNG Outreach server, feel free to pop in. We don't strictly play to win right now because the state of the game is so miserable, we pretty much just farm c-bills and try to come up with builds that are fun to play so we stay interested and don't burn out by spamming PPC Highlanders. Although I'm really hoping the state of the game improves considerably to the point where it would actually be worth it to devote the time to be competitive.
Sorry for not responding to the rest of the replies to my posts. I know some of them had a lot of effort put into them and I did read them, but I'm going to have to bow out of this discussion for now. I think we've pretty much covered everything and made our points, if we continue we will just be getting angry at each other and saying the same things over and over. I'd like to devote more time to reading and discussing the upcoming balance changes that were announced yesterday, specifically the heat changes which seem overly complex.
o7
No idea why the formatting is so screwy. If anyone sees the problem please let me know so I can correct it.
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There are a lot more torturous threads out there...
), so I'm not sure what's going on there. Maybe if you try editting it without changing anything?
