597 replies to this topic

[PEEFsmash]

[DELETED CONTENT]
That was my response to a claim that competitive players wanted some weapons to be completely useless to everybody. I was saying that there are many points of agreement, such as MGs and Pulse Lasers. Not every point is a point of agreement, but some are, and we certainly don't want some weapons to be worthless. That was not supposed to be some example of "great competitive wisdom."

Edited by Destined, 10 June 2013 - 03:02 PM.
Quote Clean up

[Ralgas]

Cos it worked out oh so well in other games that have such a public system

Oh wait........

The top bracket aren't the be all and end all of balance

[Haradim]

Generally speaking, public ratings just changes the juvenile insults and arguments about "poptarts" (or whatever the Issue of the Month is), to far more objectively-backed (but usually not more justified) insults and arguments about why Poster X needs to stop posting because Poster Y has a rating of HighScore and thus must have a more valid opinion.

Same noise, just more personal and easier to deploy, plus discouraging to anyone who isn't a top rating forum warrior.

PGI knows who to talk to if they really find they need to gather the opinions of particularly successful players, and there is more merit in keeping everyone discussing the game on as equal a level as possible than there is in unnecessarily creating rifts between players.

[LockeJaw]

I had to log in just to say:

NO. What the Hell are you thinking?

[PEEFsmash]

Haradim, on 06 June 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

PGI knows who to talk to if they really find they need to gather the opinions of particularly successful players, and there is more merit in keeping everyone discussing the game on as equal a level as possible than there is in unnecessarily creating rifts between players.

This isn't happening, and that's the problem. Koreanese (who dominated the medium and heavy leaderboards and is one of the best players in the game) just quit, and now apparently the entirety of KaoS Legion (who are the most successful competitive unit) are suspending their competitive play because of a lack of confidence in the development of the game. http://www.lastmechs...d.240/#post-731
PGI is not at all in touch with the competitive community.

[Hexenhammer]

Dear PGI.

Please make a public statement that says ELO has been removed from the game. Then just change the name to something and else don't tell anyone.

Then let everyone complain like they do about matchmaking.




edit: WOW my 2000th post.

Edited by Hexenhammer, 06 June 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[Haradim]

PEEFsmash, on 06 June 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

This isn't happening, and that's the problem. Koreanese (who dominated the medium and heavy leaderboards and is one of the best players in the game) just quit, and now apparently the entirety of KaoS Legion (who are the most successful competitive unit) are suspending their competitive play because of a lack of confidence in the development of the game. http://www.lastmechs...d.240/#post-731
PGI is not at all in touch with the competitive community.

Not to downplay their concerns, but I think part of this is a result of the game being largely unfinished, yet still treated by many as being ready to go. However extended it might be at this point, the game is still in beta as far as the developers are concerned.

If fundamental mechanics like how missiles work (not damage or other stats, but things like how they fly and how do explosions work anyway?) has yet to be finished, how can PGI start doing focused interaction on any particular subset of the community? We don't even know if they are using a final Elo calculation for the desired ratings; imagine the outcry if they had to wipe the stats because adding mech weight or whatever produced results too undesirable to deal with over the months needed to naturally adjust.

[xDeityx]

Caviel, on 06 June 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

OK, I've been playing since Frozen City was a new map, if that helps. It's still a bad idea for the community no matter how you slice it. You can argue the merits all you want, both WoW and LoL are recent examples and have both shown that it is a bad idea overall, and PGI agrees. Need more examples? Look to gear rank in Rift, realm rank in WAR and DAoC, pretty much any MMO with any sort of measurable progress meter.

WoW and LoL are both games with a flourishing competitive scene and balance that puts this game's balance to shame. I don't reach the same conclusion you do that WoW and LoL have both shown it is a bad idea overall...they seem to be doing fine. Any reputation for a trolly community is the fault of their communities' sizes, not their openness.

Caviel, on 06 June 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

To paraphase what you just said, "We shouldn't ignore what low Elo players say, although we shouldn't pay as much attention to what they say because they have a lower Elo score and they may not know what they are talking about."


Thank you for proving my point.

I don't see a problem with this as either of us has stated it. If someone is making a claim that X weapon is overpowered, I want to know what skill level they are playing at as a matter of course. For example If the general consensus is that LRMs are weak but someone is claiming that LRMs are OP, it is very likely that LRMs seem OP to that person because they just aren't skilled at the game enough yet to know how to use cover and have good awareness.

Caviel, on 06 June 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

They wouldn't be ignored, they would be ridiculed, flamed, and or dismissed if they disagree with the higher Elo bracket players by the higher Elo bracket players.

You make it sound as if the people in the higher Elo ranges will be in agreement, and this will turn into an "us vs. them" situation. You should go check out the forums at ElitistJerks.com to see an example of forums with an open Elo rating system in practice. There are some posts that are people ripping each other up with Elo scores, but there are also many, many posts that are extremely constructive on a level that simply couldn't be obtained on a forum that allowed low-rated players to participate in the discussion (you need to be above a certain Arena rating in order to post on some of the forums).

Caviel, on 06 June 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

Am I saying everyone with a high Elo score would be a vitriol spewing elitist? No, not everyone, although it doesn't take many bad apples to spoil the bunch and set a trend. After all, you just did it yourself based on time played.

I don't see how it is unreasonable to weigh someone's words based on the merit of the speaker. Humans do this constantly every day.

Caviel, on 06 June 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

PGI already has this information and they are the ones who makes the decisions. What is the point in putting this info into player hands except as a way to measure yourself against others? On that note, how can you possibly think that this wouldn't do anything except devolve into Elo size measuring contest between players? Maybe I've been around too long, although I've seen what the Internet is capable of, and I wouldn't expect anything different in this case.

I don't trust PGI because they have proven to have no idea what they are doing. I think the pros of transparency outweigh the cons and you guys are blowing a boogie man way out of proportion. Who cares if someone tries to talk down to you because of your Elo? Tell them to sod off. I've participated in communities that have transparent Elo ratings, and it is nothing like the situation the nay-sayers in this thread are describing other than in some anecdotal fringe cases. People will still act like they are acting right now. Showing a number won't change that overnight.

[General Taskeen]

Neverfar, on 06 June 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Our anointed saints have forsaken us!

You should read what you're writing here, to see how ridiculous it seems outside of "professional gamers" and their sycophantic supporters.

This. Does. Not. Need. To. Be. An. E-sport.

They are quitting from lack of variety that would be offered from a truly balanced Mech Warrior game where all weapons and equipment have their place, even in the highest tier. MW:LL wisened up when they allowed experienced players to be involved with the development of balancing weapons. MW:LL probably has the best implementation hands down for all of the following: Active/Passive Radar, C3, TAG, NARC, ECM, BAP, SRM's, SSRM's, LRM's, UAC's, Lasers, LB-X, AC's, PPC's, Heat Balance/Heat Sinks/Heat Threshold

[Kaeb Odellas]

You do realize that disregarding a person's argument because of his low Elo rating is an ad hominem argument, don't you?

[Fate 6]

Regardless of whether my Elo is high or low (and it changes drastically depending on the weight class, as my mediums and lights are surely higher, and even from chassis to chassis), my twitch reflexes (or sometimes lack thereof), poor framerate (integrated graphics for the loss), and [hopefully] above-average position all mean squat when it comes to balancing. The best players will show the OP weapons just as much as the bad ones (if you can do well with a weapon when you're bad, it clearly has an issue). And a person's view of something doesn't mean they know a good way of changing it. I for one am very good at problem solving, thinking several steps ahead, etc. so I can see how balance changes will affect other things indirectly, or how they might not target the issue correctly.

TL;DR being better at shooting things doesn't make you better at game design

EDIT: That isn't to say that competitive clans or teams can't add important insight, as it is a team based game and they can see better how changes affect their groups. However, individual skill (or lack thereof) does not determine a players ability to give INTELLIGENT and USEFUL balance thoughts - my greatest example would have to be [a name I won't mention, but he is no longer with DWAR], because he does well in the game (unquestionably above average) but he always rages about things and this tends to lead his balance thoughts in the wrong direction.

Edited by Fate 6, 06 June 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[Zordicron]

ELO public = elitist stooopidity used as weapons for forum war.
IF PGI wants to see how a players opinion might be related to the player's ELO,

THEY CAN LOOK IT UP CAUSE THEY KNOW EVERYONE"S ELO.

Know who doesnt know, or NEED to know? Other players.

Question/example.

I say, in some thread, " I dont mind using an LBX on occasion, it is a fun weapon." Do you-

A. Try to guess my ELO or assume something about it to correlate why my opinion is this way and a response
B. Discuss the LBX on it's own merits or deficiencies.

Right now, option A happens, in almost revery thread about it. It is masked by comments like "if you are serious about playing you wont use an LBX" If ELO was public, then there would simply be "proof" to the people that already think this way, and discussions would devolve almost instantly because of it. There would be no need to say things like "if you are serious" because ELO would simply be there to say if you are serious, or srs, and opinions would be validated or dismissed accordingly.

Also, as much as I am glad people can enjoy MWO so much they take it so serious and treat it like an actual competition, THOSE PLAYERS ARE NOT THE BULK OF THE COMMUNITY. I dont really care how good a player is, if they say one thing, and 99 other people say another, then who gives a rip about it: answer, the one guy(and maybe his 25 clan mates or whatever). This game should be balanced by the majority, even if we do suck compared to the 5 ELO 9 million players.

[General Taskeen]

Neverfar, on 06 June 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

They swarm like locusts. They'll make a game all about them (even in open beta!), dry it up, then move on when bored (often quickly) and do it again somewhere else.

Depends on what you are talking about Neverfar. Certain equipment and weapons in the game, for instance, are very far from the spirit of Battle Tech. And those people, like myself, are passionate about Battle Tech and nostalgia of the old Mech Warrior days. I don't even play in the competitive scene period. There is literally a 50+ page thread on MG's and yet they still remain trash after a year. There are definitely concerns with the game that are valid.

Edited by General Taskeen, 06 June 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[Zordicron]

Fate 6, on 06 June 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Regardless of whether my Elo is high or low (and it changes drastically depending on the weight class, as my mediums and lights are surely higher, and even from chassis to chassis), my twitch reflexes (or sometimes lack thereof), poor framerate (integrated graphics for the loss), and [hopefully] above-average position all mean squat when it comes to balancing. The best players will show the OP weapons just as much as the bad ones (if you can do well with a weapon when you're bad, it clearly has an issue). And a person's view of something doesn't mean they know a good way of changing it. I for one am very good at problem solving, thinking several steps ahead, etc. so I can see how balance changes will affect other things indirectly, or how they might not target the issue correctly.

TL;DR being better at shooting things doesn't make you better at game design

EDIT: That isn't to say that competitive clans or teams can't add important insight, as it is a team based game and they can see better how changes affect their groups. However, individual skill (or lack thereof) does not determine a players ability to give INTELLIGENT and USEFUL balance thoughts - my greatest example would have to be [a name I won't mention, but he is no longer with DWAR], because he does well in the game (unquestionably above average) but he always rages about things and this tends to lead his balance thoughts in the wrong direction.

This

[PappySmurf]

BAD idea then you will have 10000 E_PEENERS going look my ELO is better than your ELO.DERP DERP DERP

[Haradim]

xDeityx, on 06 June 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

You make it sound as if the people in the higher Elo ranges will be in agreement, and this will turn into an "us vs. them" situation. You should go check out the forums at ElitistJerks.com to see an example of forums with an open Elo rating system in practice. There are some posts that are people ripping each other up with Elo scores, but there are also many, many posts that are extremely constructive on a level that simply couldn't be obtained on a forum that allowed low-rated players to participate in the discussion (you need to be above a certain Arena rating in order to post on some of the forums).

The level of moderation needed to keep EJ (and many other potentially contentious forums) under control would never be tolerated here. Most of its civility comes from the swift and uncompromising trigger fingers of its moderation staff, not by any merit of the participants. PGI is not capable of enforcing such a standard here, as the forums must be open to everyone.

Edited by Haradim, 06 June 2013 - 04:11 PM.

[InRev]

Guys guys guys. As someone who placed in the Top 10 of a leaderboard challenge, that means that my opinion now carries more weight than the rest of you peons. Thus, listen to my words regarding this issue:



(note: This is satire. I am actually godawful terrible at this game, thus proving that so-called skill metrics are invalid. Elo and Leaderboard results should not affirm or negate the validity of a person's opinion. Nor should they be used a cudgel to win arguments)

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Elo should not be public nor private. It does not matter. Your stats for weapons give you a good review of your skills. Competitive teams face competitive teams no matter their personal ELO is (the whole concept of ELO is actually futile in team vs. team). It's a way to balance PUGs, not an extension to your e-peen. It should not be seen as score, like you are now. It is not a score. It's mathematical value part of matchmaking and balancing.

And trashing other users in arguments like " boogeyman players who are better than them " is excactly that e-peen swinging a-hole mentality that would spread like a plague on the forums if Elo (or even stats) was public.

[PEEFsmash]

Neverfar, on 06 June 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

I don't think Peef or his country club buddies will really grasp what you're saying. They are right because they think they are right and they have numbers (they think) to make them objectively more right than the rest of us, and if we disagree it's because our numbers are lower, and therefore we are objectively wrong.

Look at how Peef posts. Is that the "best" poster? Let's assume his Elo is very high (I wouldn't normally). So the most right opinion is that we should all bow down to him and if we disagree we are peasants? No thanks.

If it gets that far, I'll hand out e-pitchforks and e-torches.

http://mwomercs.com/...o-game-balance/
The biggest point to make here is that works for those at low-Elo who can't really aim or move properly is not relevant to balance discussion at the highest level when you are playing 8 mans against players who are well-coordinated and can aim/know how to deal with the various techniques in this game.

I'm not asking anyone to bend down to me in this discussion or any other. However,we should know that when someone complains about overpowered light circle-strafing and that lights need to be made slower, they are at a low Elo level. If they were better at the game and could aim/move properly, this would be a non-issue, and they would see that light circle-strafing is suicide for a light. This kind of stuff is what is bogging down this forum, other than Neverfarawayfromhisnexttroll who will, no doubt, continue to obscure discussion as much as possible.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 06 June 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[TheAtomiser]

Agreed with op. ELO in the form of leagues a la starcraft 2 would provide better frames of referenxe and would make people strive to become better players by improving their individual skill and team playing ability.