63 replies to this topic

[oldradagast]

Just got out of a game where my Hunchback was evaporated less than a minute into the match thanks to a pile of PPC's and Gauss hits. My little scouting duo was doomed anyway - we tried to cap and didn't expect the whole enemy team to be hanging out there - but that's not the point - a 50 ton mech shouldn't be erased from play in one salvo with direct coring.

So, yeah, as I've seen too many times, pinpoint damage *is* the problem. I don't care if they introduce a "cone of fire" mechanic, a bit of random scatter, or something else - the ability to apply 40+ damage to a single location without fail is losing its fun factor quickly. This is why alpha-boating assaults dominate the battlefield and why certain weapons seem too powerful. Any weapon is too good when all of them hit exactly in one spot with the click of a button.

Edited by oldradagast, 08 June 2013 - 10:05 AM.

[Screech]

Zyrusticae, on 08 June 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

This isn't going to be the case when we (inevitably) get an assault mech with two ballistics hard points in separate locations.

Also, this is barely even a weakness when you can put out pinpoint 40-damage alphas every 4 seconds without having to worry about heat at all.

They are not 40-damage alphas at 600m. With seismic module in place I am not sure why people are afraid of twin AC20 that much at all. Sure they hurt, but whatever is toting them should be in bad shape before they are able to get a good shot on you.

[Rhent]

topgun505, on 08 June 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

Set the hard heat-shutdown threshold at 30 ... maybe 35, and heat sinks do NOT increase this value ... they only increase your heat dissipation rate. So if you volley off 4 or more PPC, or 3 or more ERPPC that's an instant shutdown.

Additional tid bits.

There should be considerable falling damage inflicted on mechs that shut down in mid air. You are NOT a cat. If you are shutdown you are not going to land on your feet and there will be serious consequences.

Currently, if you hit the override and fire weapons that go past the current threshold you end up taking damage. Why then can a 6-PPC Stalker volley off 6 PPCs when its at 99% heat and as long as it doesn't override it takes no damage? There HAS to be serious consequences for going above a certain point on the heat scale, regardless of whether or not you override or shutdown. Not sure where that starting value should be ... 110%? 120%? The damage should probably also vary by how far you overshoot the shutdown threshold. The worse you overheat the more damage you do. In older versions of MW if you exceeded the threshold too much you BLEW UP THE ENGINE. Not sure if we should take it THAT far (my instinct says probably yes though).

Heat is not the problem. All you will then see are dual AC/20 builds blow up to numbers never seen before, with Tri UAC/5's and Dual Gauss right behind them. HEAT ISN'T THE PROBLEM, DAMAGE IS THE PROBLEM.

[Felbombling]

Mechsniper, on 08 June 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

OMG I am being killed by people who hit my mech multiple times, devs nerf everything quick!!!! STOP with the QQ!!! PLEASE! Here is a clue. This is MECHWARRIOR!!! Guns are dangerous!!!! They hit where they are aimed and kill and destroy when they do!!! That is the ENTIRE IDEA!!!!!! If you want your magical mech to frolick in the flowers while you play tag(conquest, capwarrior in assault) this was the wrong choice of game for you. If you derp into the open alone and 3 mechs appear and rip you into pieces in 2 seconds, you made a poor life choice. The massive QQ is leading devs to make over nerfing weapons a monthly occurance to try to sedate the noobies. If guns shoot flowers and confetti and hit anywhere but where the reticle is aimed, rename it fairy warrior online and I will be out. Give us the Pew Pew, the explosions, destruction, and when your mech happens to take its turn in going down in flames, smile, that's what its all about!!!

I love that this comment is coming from an account with the name 'Mechsniper'. So rich.

[Zyllos]

Rebas Kradd, on 08 June 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

See, that's where I disagree with most of you convergence/hardpoint folks. I think you are waaaaaaay underestimating the number of big new tuning necessities that would open up with this kind of sweeping change. Right now, the ethos is mostly set and only minor tweaks are being done. Your suggestion would create all kinds of new hidden behaviors and incidental prevalences amongst weapons. It'd be reinventing the wheel and would push launch back into at least the holiday season.

Just introduce heat penalties and let the designed boating vulnerabilities do the rest of the work.

Well, this is the way I see it.

The changes I suggest does not make a weapon deal damage differently, but only how it applies damage differently, and being more inline with TT.

With weapons doing more damage across multiple locations, I feel that this does not effect the overall weapon at all. It just means you will end up firing more shots to kill a mech or slow down to get more shots onto a location to kill a mech. It's not changing the fact that ACs and PPCs do not deal all their damage to a single location or Missiles and LBX deals damage across multiple sections when firing.

That is why I disagree that the suggested changes will push back balancing. They were made in mind with the current system we have now, with players using multiple "all damage to single location" weapons so that, regardless where they hit, it all goes into a single location, just is most likely going to kill the mech when it does land.

[Rahnu]

Screech, on 08 June 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

They are not 40-damage alphas at 600m. With seismic module in place I am not sure why people are afraid of twin AC20 that much at all. Sure they hurt, but whatever is toting them should be in bad shape before they are able to get a good shot on you.

That's a big assumption to be making.

And the issue here is that they are essentially the single best brawling weapon system you can possibly tote. Nothing else compares. No amount of medium lasers is going to let you take someone down as fast as an AC/40 boat. None of the lesser ACs can keep up. Obviously SRMs are nowhere near as effective.

Now think about what you just said. You basically said that there's no reason to be afraid of a brawler - any brawler - because you should be able to spot them and damage them before they get within range. This is a problem for all brawlers, and the AC/40 boat is the single best brawler platform available at this time. If the single best brawler platform is having issues doing their thing you know something is wrong.

At any rate, AC/40 boats should NOT be as effective as they are relative to other brawler platforms, and brawlers themselves should have enough of a firepower advantage to offset their disadvantage in range. At least, that is the ideal. Obviously, the way things currently are is pretty damn far from that ideal.

[Unbound Inferno]

Fascinating topic, I had a thought along these lines but have been to busy to bother yet.

The biggest problem I see in most weapon boats (aside form LRMs) is the pinpoint perfect accuracy of the weapons at all ranges.

The concept of converging weapons accurately is fine; but seriously look at it again.

Torso mounted weapons have almost no way to adjust.
Partial arms with only upper acuators have limited mobility.
Only full arms have the flexibility to adjust perfectly.

Or at least that's what I'd see in it.

What I would suggest to 'balance' it out is to set fixed pinpoint accuracy and adjustable limits on that depending on the weapon mount placement.

Translate the Long range to Optimal range;

Torso weapons are set for the Optimal range for perfect targeting. Adjustable only within a certain % of that max range, more or less.
Medium Laser as an example is Optimal at 270, max of 540. Take 10% of the max range as the variable of the accuracy, so it is accurate from 216 to 324 in the torso.
Arm mounted with only upper acuators can only adjust accurately from the Optimal range to the Max range.
Again, the Medium Laser would be accurate from 216 to the max of 540 in a partial Arm mount.
Full style arm mounted weapons with both Upper and Lower acuators can converge with pinpoint accuracy at almost any range. The lower limit is a small % of the max range of the weapon.
With a full arm the Medium Laser is accurate from 54m to 540m.

Maybe toss in the Pinpoint and Arm Reflex skills as ways to modify the accuracy limits.

This adjustment could adapt the accuracy of the shots, limiting the perfect pinpoint alphastrikes completely decimating the field all the time. Shooting outside that perfect range would cause the weapon to obviously hit a different spot. In the case of boats, it would make it highly unreliable at extreme ranges, and less accurate closer - however still allows certain mechs to function well as snipers. Now, its not perfect, but the alteration could allow the damage at a max range snipe, or close quarters brawl to spread the damage slightly depending on the mech sizes and positions.


Missiles I see more as an issue with how they fire.

The basic setting now has the missiles following a path to the center of the target - its CT.
The current pathing doesn't appear to limit how close a missile can be from another in flight.
Also, we have instances of a mech launching multiple salvos at once where they don't normally have the ability to launch so many at once. Best case for me personally is a C1 that normally launches 15, then a 5 for a full 20 when equipped.

Set a minimum distance each missile can be from one another. This would force a basic spread out from the flight path .
In the case of loading more missiles on than the mech's launcher can fire at once would force the consecutive launches to spread out more outside that. This would make boating beyond a mech's typical loadout less beneficial since it will eventually be spread enough that most simply would not hit the target mech. This also helps encourage AMS as knocking out those core few that would hit further discourage LRM boating beyond their intended loadouts. Then, you can return a proper buff for damage and splash to something appropriate to fit with other weapons.



Lastly as it is mentioned above as well; separate mount sizes and types.

Limit to appropriate mountable sized weapons.

Alternatively, like the missile suggestion of mine - have it where mounting larger than appropriate sized Energy/Ballistic the accuracy adjusted beyond intended ranges is reduced drastically, making it inaccurate at extreme ranges and not pinpoint closer.

Large Energy; ER/Large Lasers, ER/PPC
Medium Energy; Medium Laser
Small Energy; Small Laser

Large Ballistic; AC20, Gauss
Medium Ballistic; AC10, LBX10, U/AC5
Small Ballistic; Machine Gun, AC2

LRMs - can only mount LRMs
SRMs - can only mount SRMs or Streaks
Multipurpose Missile - can mount either



Optimistically by restricting what are mountable weapons for the mech can then limit what you can expect as a reliable output - but not do it so much as to drastically remove the possibility. At the very least with limits on accuracy and what should be mounted for the best effectiveness would make it less desirable as opposed to a more reliable loadout. But still not completely remove the possibility, yet leaving the hope of more variety.


Or at least that's my 2 cents on it all.

[cyberFluke]

Zyrusticae, on 08 June 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

This isn't going to be the case when we (inevitably) get an assault mech with two ballistics hard points in separate locations.

Also, this is barely even a weakness when you can put out pinpoint 40-damage alphas every 4 seconds without having to worry about heat at all.

Nor does it stop the Dual AC20 Cat...

[Screech]

Zyrusticae, on 08 June 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

That's a big assumption to be making.

Not really, if you let a AC40 get the first shot on you, you are going to have a tough time. You should have plenty of time to prevent that from happening unless the other guy played it better then you.

Zyrusticae, on 08 June 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

And the issue here is that they are essentially the single best brawling weapon system you can possibly tote. Nothing else compares. No amount of medium lasers is going to let you take someone down as fast as an AC/40 boat.

A Jenner F with 6ML at 540m has a higher alpha then a AC/40. Now 540m isn't really brawling distance but a medium laser isn't really a brawling weapon. But I think what you really are looking for is a fix for SRM which is sorely needed. Fixing SRM will help fix brawling in general.

[Renthrak]

Slow the speed of weapon convergence. If you have to keep the reticule on target for ~5 seconds to hit a single armor location, firing less accurate shots more quickly should be common, and builds that rely on massive pin-point damage will be at a disadvantage.

[Lord of All]

Quote

High Pin Point Damage Is The Problem. What's Your Solution?

Quite simple really the heat system is broken. Fix it. Watch boaters explode.

[Mxxpower]

I don't really see a problem with boats.... You really need to gimp your mech to make 6 ppc stalkers or 4 ppc Atlas's...

If you want to make it your goal to counter these setup's just stick a 300xl in a jenner... I mean, this is exactly what a light mechs job is, killing boats and LRM mechs.

[Rahnu]

Mxxpower, on 08 June 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

I don't really see a problem with boats.... You really need to gimp your mech to make 6 ppc stalkers or 4 ppc Atlas's...

If you want to make it your goal to counter these setup's just stick a 300xl in a jenner... I mean, this is exactly what a light mechs job is, killing boats and LRM mechs.

Wow, this is horrifically ignorant.

Besides the fact that PPCs basically render large lasers irrelevant, all those PPC boats need to do is hit the light with a single alpha and they're already dead.

Furthermore, this "counter" is essentially under the assumption that their teammates won't help them.

I've been alpha'd enough times in my X-5 to know how "effective" that counter is.

[Mxxpower]

Zyrusticae, on 08 June 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Wow, this is horrifically ignorant.

Besides the fact that PPCs basically render large lasers irrelevant, all those PPC boats need to do is hit the light with a single alpha and they're already dead.

Furthermore, this "counter" is essentially under the assumption that their teammates won't help them.

I've been alpha'd enough times in my X-5 to know how "effective" that counter is.

no offense, but.... I have never been alpha'd by anything running around in the 130-150kph light mechs unless I have a leg blown off. Clipping a light mech circling you with a ppc is at best a luck shot.

[cyberFluke]

Mxxpower, on 08 June 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

no offense, but.... I have never been alpha'd by anything running around in the 130-150kph light mechs unless I have a leg blown off. Clipping a light mech circling you with a ppc is at best a luck shot.

Only because of broken hit boxes/mechanics. Given time, that won't apply.

[topgun505]

El Bandito, on 08 June 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

I see lights and mediums all the time in my matches now.

I see maybe one of each per side per game. Maybe. Whereas I used to see 2-4 of each per side per game. The population has definitely fallen off. Not to zero ... but it definitely has taken a step off a cliff.

[Astrolux]

I'm with the limiting hard point size crowd. Just because it's an "energy" slot doesn't mean you should be able to put a PPC there. They're tuning all the mechs with "quirks" anyway and that easily falls under that category.

[Blackadder]

Screech, on 08 June 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

A Jenner F with 6ML at 540m has a higher alpha then a AC/40. Now 540m isn't really brawling distance but a medium laser isn't really a brawling weapon. But I think what you really are looking for is a fix for SRM which is sorely needed. Fixing SRM will help fix brawling in general.

Not sure where your getting these numbers from, but jenner F at 540 meters does 0 damage. Unless i am mistaken a ac40 cat will do roughly 50% reduced damage at 540 meters or 10 damage per shot. this is based on the understanding that lasers get an x2 modifier on range, while ballistics get an x3 modifier. its one of the reasons the ac20 is vastly superior to the ac10.

[wolf74]

3rd time posted below:

I think Switching to a Manual Controlled Convergence point is the way to go. Yes it is Harder for Newer players but when you hit it is Truly your Skill or Dumb Luck that got the shot. I have been a video gamer & Battletech fan a long time (Commodore 64 anyone?)

Con’s:

• Harder for New Player (unless they have played a GOOD WW2 Tank sim than it will be a cake walk for them).

Pro’s:

• Gives Pin point damage for those who wait for the right range for the shot or can make the Corrections on the fly.
  
• High odds of spreading the damage around the targets.
  
• Gives Classic Battletech Targeting Computer* a reason to be in the game
  
• Give Pulse Lasers a Reason to be used over normal Lasers

Things I would give the players if Manual Convergence is put in:

• +-5m auto Correction. (AKA if you target is within 5m of you Convergence point it will hit pin point).
  
• CBT Target Computers* upgrades the +-5m auto-correction to +-15m.
  
• Pulse Laser (Does not stack with Targeting Computers) get a +-25m auto-Correction
  
• Add a Column to the score page:
  
  • If using the current targeting system listed the player as a Rookie Pilot
    
  • If using the Manual Controlled Targeting listed the player as a Mechwarrior
• Add a boost to the Damage C-Bills (Only the Damage C-Bills) if the player is playing using the Manual Controlled system (Can only be changed in the MechLab)

*The I.S. Targeting Computer are normally not in game until 3058 but for game play reasons & New Player support I think most CBT player will over look the Date to help the Game along.

[Steel Claws]

I put forward a way to reduce the number of high damage weapons that could be boated a while back that could be balanced and scaled. And you can find it here: http://mwomercs.com/...-energy-builds/