91 replies to this topic

[Malora Sidewinder]

Kaldor, on 10 June 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

Yeah, because 8 mans are going to be the savior of MWO from a financial stand point? Im not here to start a flame war, but I probably represent a good chunk of the demographic wanted for this game. The 8man queue in all reality is just an addition to make it easier to play against other mans. For every 8 man team dropping, you probably have, and Im going to go on the conservative side, 50 4 man teams that are casually playing, and this doesnt include the solo guys just PUGging. So yea, 8 mans, while I enjoy the play style and the need to be competitive, are probably less than 5% of the game population.

You did fail to read the rest of my post where I actually agree with Soy, and how JJs should be used to setup a shot. Just because I dont play 8man very often, doesnt mean I dont understand the fundamentals of the game. Its not that hard to understand how to build a good mech, and fundamentals like movement and getting into position to take a shot. The rest is just time played as anyone who has lots of time can easily become a good player if they understand the fundamentals.

balance is most important for a competitive scene, though, which is the point that you're missing.

a change can have minuscule effects on pugging as a whole, but can have much larger and more dramatic effects on the competitive scene. this works in reverse as well, though. look at ECM. when it came out, it ripped the pugging meta completely apart.
competitive teams barely used ECM, and even today ECM is *maybe* used on 1-2 mechs on a team.
that's just one example. the balance that weapons should have will effect pugging, but will *usually* effect competitive play to a much more severe degree, and competitive play is what makes a game survivable for the long haul.

my example is halo 2-3.
when halo 3 released, it became the go to casual game. it was a great game. but after awhile, MLG decided that halo 2 required a tremendous amount more skill to dominate at than halo 3.
at the end, halo 2 had more players playing than halo 3 did when they pulled the plug on xbox original live service.
halo 2 would have lived longer BECAUSE of the competitive community as opposed to the casual one.

son of a ***** now i wanna go play halo 2 for like 12 hours. DAMN IT

[RussianWolf]

people like talking about the competitive teams in 8 mans and 4 mans and how they will make or break the game.

The thing I find funny about it is that in this universe, the one competitive environment was Solaris VII where it was Free-for-all, 1vsEveryone Else.

Why would you want to gamble on just 5% of the population? Wouldn't it be smarter to target the 40+% that pug and are competitive but aren't interested in teams AND the 5%? Team competitions can always be brought in, but the individual competitions are so much easier to fill out and are less restrictive.

I think its disgraceful that they are saying Solaris VII is a year or more away from implementation.

[Volume]

Just for the record, one of the best ways to get a developer to change "OP" builds is by using them and performing well in them. That will give them usage statistics that can be used to consider balance changes.

Also, I'd like to point out that in a competitive environment, winning is the priority, hence the usage of certain builds that might be considered less "fun" to certain people because of the lack of engaging, dynamic combat.

Unfortunately, with the current design of the game, poking up from hills with strong front-loaded alphastrikes are the best method of maximizing damage dealt while minimizing damage taken. I'd like to see this change as much as the next guy, but the bottom line is that people use tactics because they're effective. Don't blame the player, blame the design for making these tactics that some might call "boring" a safer, stronger option.

[RussianWolf]

Volume, on 10 June 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Unfortunately, with the current design of the game, poking up from hills with strong front-loaded alphastrikes are the best method of maximizing damage dealt while minimizing damage taken. I'd like to see this change as much as the next guy, but the bottom line is that people use tactics because they're effective. Don't blame the player, blame the design for making these tactics that some might call "boring" a safer, stronger option.

The builds aside, These tactics have been in use since the first projectile weapons were used in antiquity. Get used to it. They aren't going anywhere.

If it worked then, and it works now, why on earth would people stop using it?

[Lostdragon]

RussianWolf, on 10 June 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

The builds aside, These tactics have been in use since the first projectile weapons were used in antiquity. Get used to it. They aren't going anywhere.

If it worked then, and it works now, why on earth would people stop using it?

Yeah but don't forget a lot of early firearms battles weren't much different than melee battles. Two big armies squared off at each other and formed firing lines less than 100 yards apart and lots of people died or suffered horrible wounds.

In BT mech battles are portrayed a lot more like battles between knights than snipers and I would love to see the game move in that direction. One of the things I love about the CTFs is their versatility. They are good at the sniper meta bit they have so much more potential with just a few balance tweaks.

[Trauglodyte]

p00k, on 09 June 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

when winning is all that matters, every advantage will be exploited, every imbalance will be exaggerated, and "good" is just as useless as "bad" if it's not the "best".

Very wise words, sir.

[Cerlin]

I played the 3D before poptarting was a thing and it was a great general mech/brawler. How did that change, unless you just dont pilot it very well?

[operator0]

JSparrowist, on 09 June 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

I think balance and diversity in matches, not to mention fun, should come before cheese layered cheese on the battle field.

NFL teams should stop building their offensive lines with cheese built on cheese 300+ pound super athletes. Let's find out who the real men are and sign 230 pound 38 Y.O. plumbers and accountants. Not to mention all those sorry cheese saps who can run a 4.4 40 yard dash. That's pure velveta. And hey... those 6'8" power forwards, complete and total cheese. Labron should be ashamed. And why do we need so many Porches, Vettes and Astons running in Le'Mans? Total cheese. If they really want to prove how good they are, they should run Dodge Caravans.

[Angel of Annihilation]

PEEFsmash, on 09 June 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

The Jump-Jet thing was stupid because it mainly nerfed lights who shoot on the ascent, not poptarts who shoot at the apex. However, it made everyone who uses jumpjet's experience universally more disorienting and headache-inducing.

I have to fully agree on this one. Poptarting to snipe isn't really any harder now than before because like you said, you shoot at the apex of your accent where there is a natural pause and no shake. However, one of the marks of a skillful light mech pilot was the ability to jump fire while manuvering in the air. Now it is impossible to do this so all it managed to do is dumb down the tactics and skill required to use a light mech.

[Deathlike]

After having played the phract-3D for about 4 hours straight, I'm happy to say... the changes outside of the vomit inducing shake hasn't changed my game that much... if not improved it.

The JJ-shake meta is overstated, and those with a clue can master it and not be affected. It's only the bad pilots that aren't willing to take JJs at all.

The JJ-shake is effectively a mind game... only newbies would fall into the trap.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 June 2013 - 11:04 PM.

[Sephlock]

Volume, on 10 June 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Just for the record, one of the best ways to get a developer to change "OP" builds is by using them against the devs

Fixed that for you.

[Aslena]

Just wanted to show how easy JJ still is... kinda boring till 2 min in... my first match after reading this thread and thinking hmm I could make a video... I'm in no guild... no 8 mans... no 4 mans... just pugging it so far and really late night I play with my brother...



Just wanted to add that I can't do it that often however cuz... I get a BAD headache after a while

Edited by Aslena, 14 June 2013 - 12:37 AM.