74 replies to this topic

[Shalune]

Game balance is actually in the best place it's been in a very long time.

And I can't, for the life of me, figure out why everyone hates mediums. Is everyone trying to run them with slow engines? If you're having trouble try loading your hunch with a 260, treb or 9D with a 325+ or other cent with a 275, and twist like there's no tomorrow.

EDIT: Just saw the post above me

Theodor Kling, on 10 June 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

I agree with both of you actually
The patch history is a disaster of slow pace changes that were way overboard most of the time, but the last patch did alot of good, and showed that they can make smaller changes as well.
So I am uncertain about the next one.

With you 100%. I was getting worried after the previous patch and its hotfix, but this most recent one has restored my confidence for the reasons you stated. To be clear I know it's still not perfect, and, like many people, would like to see something balance how pinpoint fire works.

Edited by Shalune, 11 June 2013 - 01:13 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Quote

And I can't, for the life of me, figure out why everyone hates mediums. Is everyone trying to run them with slow engines?

Why do Mediumsneed fast engines? And if they need fast engines, why do some Mediums have relatively harsh engine restrictions?

[Squirtbox]

I'm quite curious how PGI came up with some of their numbers for the various weapon systems in the game right now.

How does an AC/2 warrant a .5 second RoF while an AC/5 is 1.5 or the Gauss Rifle's 4 seconds?

I didn't play TT but wasn't each round of combat supposed to simulate 10 seconds? If every weapon fires once every 10 seconds where did these numbers come from?

I'm not asking for all weapons to fire once every 10 seconds but I think PGI's rather at random assignment of rates of fire and beam duration are part of the current balance issues. I mean why shouldn't I take a PPC over a LPL? PPCs deal all 10 points of damage essentially instantly while the LPL(and all lasers in the game) have to be on target for the entire beam in order to damage that is spread all over the mech. Of course having PPCs (and ballistics in general) allows the firer to twist away and spread damage across his mech while the laser user cant do the same for the most part.

[MustrumRidcully]

Squirtbox, on 11 June 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

I'm quite curious how PGI came up with some of their numbers for the various weapon systems in the game right now.

How does an AC/2 warrant a .5 second RoF while an AC/5 is 1.5 or the Gauss Rifle's 4 seconds?

I didn't play TT but wasn't each round of combat supposed to simulate 10 seconds? If every weapon fires once every 10 seconds where did these numbers come from?

How often weapons actually fire is not explicitely stated in canon, the lore stats some weapons ahve different fire rates and damage per projectile, but they are subsumed under the categories we have. Rules-wise, the stats said this is the amount of damage and heat a weapon produce per turn if used. So the numbers of rate of fire and all that? Completely made up by the dev, and with little rhyme or reason.

[Squirtbox]

MustrumRidcully, on 11 June 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

How often weapons actually fire is not explicitely stated in canon, the lore stats some weapons ahve different fire rates and damage per projectile, but they are subsumed under the categories we have. Rules-wise, the stats said this is the amount of damage and heat a weapon produce per turn if used. So the numbers of rate of fire and all that? Completely made up by the dev, and with little rhyme or reason.

That, I think, is a major problem with balance right now. I would venture more of an issue than changes to the heat of weapons, ranges, or ammo per ton.

[jakucha]

Like others have said, we need to change the heat system before weapons will really be balanced.

[jeffsw6]

HarmAssassin, on 10 June 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

MWO and Balance aren't even in the same solar system.

The farther this game moves from TT values, the more broken it becomes.

Thinking like this is part of the PROBLEM. In TT you can't AIM. Until you realize that, you can't contribute to an intelligent discussion about the armament-balance of a FPS.

Xeno Phalcon, on 10 June 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

Balance is a difficult thing to achieve in a game like this as its currently designed, especially with players actively seeking to find and abuse weak spots (Such as jump jet sniping , boating and chainfiring weapons not normally used in that fashion.)

The thing is, PGI basically hasn't tried to balance it. As I keep saying, if they were trying, we would see regular balance changes every single patch.

[GingerBang]

MaddMaxx, on 10 June 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

Ummm, sorry, but how did PGI's system shaft the Awesome exactly? It can still carry its default/Stock load-out can it not?

Without customization, PGI could have just made a Stock 3025 game, sans Tier 2 tech and called it a day. Would that have been a better game, really?

Because all weapons are pinpoint, ergo the awesome is one BIG *** bullseye, and the center ring takes up 60% of the target.

[WildeKarde]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 June 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

Like this?

More like this with our medium (knife) sneaking up on the catapult (connery) who turns out to be packing 6SRM's but in his haste chasing the medium he ends up facing the 6PPC stalker (machinegun):

http://youtu.be/_d5jXDvrOu4

As can be seen bigger is better for FOTM

Edited by Jake Hendricks, 12 June 2013 - 08:24 AM.

[Monkeystador]

Its as complex as Starcraft. How long did Blizzard take to roughly balance it?

[KuruptU4Fun]

Alistair Winter, on 10 June 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Ironically, in my poll, my last option was "Here, watch this Extra Credits youtube video". I swear to God.

Those videos are pulled out in every thread like this, like some kind of trump card to end all debate.

Because unlike FupDup's post, I really don't see that people truly understand game balance. They want a weapon buff/nerf they want a variant to have different/ more hard points. They want something like ECM nerfed/buffed. But fail to look at the overall picture that includes hard and soft counters for each of these things (excluding the variant HP issue).

Demands are blind to the compromises currently given. They are blind to the announced changes made. That video tries to show them that B has to be the exact counter to A. But that C,D,E,F and G are. So pick one based on how you play and enjoy the game.

[Syllogy]

jeffsw6, on 09 June 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Not just stubbornness, but their unwillingness to test anything, use arithmetic, or have management who are capable of recognizing mistakes and trying to correct them. It all boils down to inept management.

If you can do better, I look forward to seeing the results. If you can't, please substantiate this crap you keep spouting. Remember to use references and empirical evidence. (You know, like arithmetic.) Manage your time wisely, and don't be inept.

jeffsw6, on 11 June 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

The thing is, PGI basically hasn't tried to balance it. As I keep saying, if they were trying, we would see regular balance changes every single patch.

PGI hasn't tried to balance aim?! And there haven't been any balance changes in the 3 months that you've been playing MWO?! ERMAGERD!!! ....

... Oh wait... yes there have. Stop acting like a 12 year old girl who is mad at her parents because she didn't get a pony for her birthday.

[Havok1978]

Syllogy, on 21 June 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

If you can do better, I look forward to seeing the results. If you can't, please substantiate this crap you keep spouting. Remember to use references and empirical evidence. (You know, like arithmetic.) Manage your time wisely, and don't be inept.



PGI hasn't tried to balance aim?! And there haven't been any balance changes in the 3 months that you've been playing MWO?! ERMAGERD!!! ....

... Oh wait... yes there have. Stop acting like a 12 year old girl who is mad at her parents because she didn't get a pony for her birthday.

I'm quoting you here Syllogy becuse I consider you to be a friend but you really need to get off PGI's sack.. you are starting to sound like Phil....

I dont know if you get to be in the "alpha" test team for kissing thier *** or not but the simple fact is they are in fact failing at this game and they are failing hard...

They do NOT balance the game, the player population is dwindling and the only draw to this game are the "oh look,a shiny!" distractions they offer up.
The marketing team has no problem advanceing and producing monetary grab items but the development team is having a lot of issues with the actual game.

We critique PGI becuse we have that right, we are beta testers, we have paid in to the game, we have invested into something we would like to continue to play and see come to fruitation.
There have been truely outlandish statements made such as 250,000$ for a map and 50,000$ for a mech.. this is in no way viable or believable.

At the current rate of 4 maps a year it would cost 1,000,000$ dollars.. that is completely ridiculous. It does not take that by any stretch of the imagination. If a single person developed maps for the company, 4 of which a year is very reasonable, are you going to pay them 1,000,000$? No, you may at most pay them 150,000$

There are alot of factors in running a corporation and a business, that I do not deny, there are overhead costs, that I do not deny either. But to affix a set value of these things on something such as limiting the number of maps, mechs, and core essentials in an effort to control growth to maximize profits on sub par efforts is also ridiculous and folly.
It also reeks of gross mismanagement.

To say that some of us may be inept at running a punch press, CNC mill and lathe and sheet metal break so therefore we absolutely have no idea as to how to build a car or what it costs is also ridiculous...
You dont have to know everything about everything to know when something is overpriced or is failing.

In my case I know quite a bit about modding games and have looked at engines and have some experience with SDK kits and the cryengine, I also have some experience with art programs and 3D modeling and textures... Just becuse I havent produced a game and sold it doesnt mean I dont know what it takes.

At this point I'd like to also say I dont entirely blame PGI for the state of things.. I actually blame IGP more for the way it is.

PGI's fault in this mainly lies with game balancing, lack of listening to the community, calling us "the vocal minority".. this is an "open beta" yet there is still a "test server"? thats redundant... This is all unfortunately typical of the "free to play" business model... There is no stable consistant intake of profit to sustain the company so they must rely on burst profits which always results in sub-par game devlopment.

The income of this game relies on new players coming in and saying "wow this game is cool, I'm gonna buy this hero mech and paint for this camo scheme then put this item<s> in my cockpit" However after 1 or 2 months the game becomes stale and they move on... But not to worry becuse as they leave, another new person comes in for this burst income again... Being as the the player base is in constant turnover there is no real intiative to fix the broken parts of the game like the core gameplay.

The "vocal minority" as we are labeled.. are the folks that are true to the license and what Battletech and Mechwarrior is,was, and could be... We are vocal becuse quite frankly we are pissed off at the state of things, the undelievered promises and being misled constantly.

We have 2 game modes, there can easily be 5 or 6, these arent monumental programming feats to accomplish, we have a broken weapon balancing system.. It promotes bringing nothing but PPC+guass combos or boating LRM's or whatever they didnt nerf or what they buffed into OP'ness in the latest patch cycle... True, there will always be spreadsheet warriors.. but breaking one thing to promote the use of another is ignorant.

Trying to appeal to everyone is fool's errand, it is much better to do something extremely well than to try to accomplish everything in a half-assed manner.. What we have at the moment is a grab bag of half-assed-ness and band-aid fixes, and its starting to look a lot like Frakenstiens monster.. or Duke Nuke'em Forever....

This game isnt fail atm, but its not making progress either, it IS stagnating and becoming stale though.
And alllll the hero mechs and camo sales, new paint schemes, cockpit items, promotional tournaments and makeshift patches in the world.. wont change that.

We need weapon balance, we need reliable hit detection, we need more maps to play on and game modes to play, we need 12 vs 12, we need lobbies and we need community warfare aside from the bickering on the forums...

Of those things several of them could be implemented relatively quickly, and as a result of fixing those things sales will in fact go UP....
Right now, the community is skeptical and doesnt trust PGI or IGP.. We get trolled by the mod's, devs, and etc and are dismissed as being the "vocal minority".
Well guess what? "the vocal minority" are also the folks that tell thier friends and new people they meet, "Oh ya the game is cool but its broken, dont waste your money" OR... we can say "ya, the game is cool you should defintely try it" .. I'm just gonna leave that statement right there to culminate in your brain for a bit...

So, no, its not about being 12yr old girl bitching about her pony....
but in case you were wondering, Luna is best pony tho FYI...

Edited by Havok1978, 21 June 2013 - 07:25 AM.

[Acid Phase]