7 replies to this topic

[Comm Pic]

more than likely beating a dead horse here.

but has anyone heard or read anything on the MEK-FU controller that was coming out for Hawken? wanting to get it for MWO since the Razer Artemis appears to be dead as it no longer shows up on Razers site.

[kuangmk11]

Probably dead. Ripleigh was a startup controller maker and the mek-fu was their first product as far as I can tell. The company's site is a blank page, their twitter has been dark since September last year, and their facebook hasn't been updated in a year.

[Loc Nar]

Have nothing to add on the Mek Fu stick other than I'm bummed but not surprised it isn't available, especially since it was aimed at Hawken, a mech game even less suitable to *normal joystick control than MWO. Not sure what's going on with the Artemis, but after learning it wasn't officially dead some months back I've begun to try and influence the design of the joystick part of it since if it's done right it would be awesome, but if it were a normal joystick slapped on that sweet base it's fate in MWO is already sealed.

To satisfy my own need for non-kbm controls I have constructed a specialized joystick just for mech piloting seen here, which is installed in my current mechpit. As it turns out, the Steel Battallion controller (clearly the predecessor of the Mek-Fu concept) is a viable candidate for modding for use with MWO, but requires re-gutting it. There are people using them as is, but with the stock electronics this is undesirable for a number of reasons, owing mostly the low resolution on the main stick, even if one makes it past the normal drivers/emulators problems that keep most of this stuff shrouded in mystery.

I wrote an article on qqmercs not long ago on the subject of MWO controls and you, called Controls Demystified(?) to help people better understand the nature of the problems and solutions for a game like this, or if nothing else arm them with the proper terminology to have meaningful discussions on controls both in MWO and elsewhere. I posted a copy of the article here in the hardware section: Controls Demystified(?)

[Nuds]

Maybe this will brighten everyone's day I just found a Video of a display version of the Mek-Fu put out today (June 11 2013)

Edited by Nuds, 11 June 2013 - 05:52 PM.

[von Pilsner]

Now if only PGI could code in proper joystick support...

Please see IL2:1946 and Rise of Flight for proper simulation joystick support implementation.

[Loc Nar]

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Now if only PGI could code in proper joystick support...

Sigh... this honestly has nothing to do with them 'not getting it', but rather that PGI consciously chose the control type they did for aim/freelook. Reticule aim in MWO is a zero-order application (just like a cursor in a browser) however *most joysticks are first-order devices (misconceived argument is usually framed as 'mouse vs joystick'). I wrote up an article for qqmercs that gets into more detail explaining this better and in standardized terminology called Controls Demystified(?) and explains what is going on here, thus hopefully better equipping readers to come up with actual solutions rather than waiting for an event that is not going to happen. The reason a normal joystick worked well in previous mech titles is the same reason they work well in flight simulators etc. They are coded around first or higher order inputs and it's a first-order controller mechanically and electonically optimized around those parameters (spring centering with detente, deadzones, relative inputs etc) all of which conspire to make it far from optimal in a zero-order application. Just try web surfing for a while with joystick using emulated mouse commands. Or play MWO with a normal joystick. Same thing, different sensitivity.

If you're nuts like me and really want a joystick that works well in MWO, basically you have to make one since there are no dedicated zero-order joysticks to buy and no amount of trickery can make a first-order controller compete on even footing in a zero-order environment. However, relevant to your interests (naturally my searching has run me across your name since you are one of the goto SB controller guys), it has come to my attention that the right joystick on a Steel Battalion controller is also a native zero-order controller; but in addition to the usual driver/emulator issues that the x/y axes are 8bit (0-255) which is far too low resolution, at least for contemporary zero-order; but first order is a sloppy elastic mechanic that suffers little from lack of resolution in contrast.

No matter. The solution is not cobbling ever increasingly complex layers of programming in vain attempts to compensate for this, but rather take the guts from a Thrustmaster T16000M ($40 TARGET capable stick with same 16bit x/y sensor as Warthog) and repurpose it's guts to the SB controller. The stick could use the T16000M grip on the SB gimbal, which would be rather easy to attach the single magnet to the gimbal in relation to the single chip (dual axis) fixed below it. Solder the SB controller's buttons to the wire leads on the T16000M board and bam, best of both worlds. Physically still the SB controller, but with a TARGET controlled brain and a 16bit Hall sensor and more buttons on the stick. TARGET allows absolute inputs among many other useful things like macros, shift layers, on the fly sensitivity changes, etc and blows all the other emulator options out of the water.

Use with or without regular rudder pedals, since it would already have all in-game functions available... this needs to happen.

edit: I realize I mention most of this in my previous post, but these are precisely the misconceptions it was written for, in an attempt to clear them up.

Edited by Loc Nar, 11 June 2013 - 07:34 PM.

[von Pilsner]

If you simply say absolute joystick aiming versus relative joystick aiming I think you need less paragraphs to explain.

Can even give examples...
Absolute = Rudder Pedals - when you stop moving the stick the in-game movement stops (hold your rudders at 30% deflection and they stay at 30% deflection).
Relative = Current MWO Joystick support - you have to return the stick to center to stop it from moving (hold stick at 30% deflection and you torso twist until you hit your torso twist limit).

(not to you but to the inevitable suggestions)
Pinnacle and XPadder are terrible at mapping joystick to mouse, this is no solution, already tried it.

Edited by von Pilsner, 11 June 2013 - 07:51 PM.

[Loc Nar]

Quote

If you simply say absolute joystick aiming versus relative joystick aiming I think you need less paragraphs to explain.

I agree it could be shorter and more interesting, but the ideas of absolute/zero-order or relative/first-order are not synonymous nor interchangeable. I *used* to explain all this in those terms before I knew better, (my half-baked v1.0 explanation is linked in the article) but it's simply a misnomer and leaves the door wide open for confusion. Yes these words can accurately explain individual parts of the process, but they do not withstand informed inquiry.

To illustrate some problems with using the notions of absolute/relative to try to describe this stuff; by default a mouse is a relative input device, and a joystick is an absolute one. However, a mouse's relative positional information generates absolute coordinates and a joystick's absolute positional information generates relative inputs. Depending on what *part of the process or hardware you are talking about can take a 180deg turn and still be true. Because of this and many other reasons, it's important to identify what order of order control in input is and how a device tries to comply and to apply the correct labels, especially when navigating semi-charted waters. Game devs, control designers, human-factors engineers, etc use this terminology, and this field is an established scientific discipline.

Strange, I would have thought the idea that the Steel Batallion controller potentially being actual contender for a *viable control setup for MWO would have been the part you keyed in on since you have spent so much time with trying/making it compatible with MWO. As soon as I get my hands on one, I'll be sure to post my build log/conversion process here...

You should try to get a T16000M ($20-$40 online) to check out MWO using absolute inputs etc. I already have scripts for it that are pretty useful, but so long as it's just a first-order spring-loaded job there's only so good it will be. Worst case you sell it back off for what you paid for it. Best case you realize TARGET puts more support in your own hands than you could ever hope for in any game and is not the holdup with MWO, which can then integrated to work with the SB's unique non-spring-centering friction damped gimbal, which when combined with absolute inputs would make a pretty nice zero-order controller that competes on even footing with other zero-order controllers (mice, my joystick, other?), and all those neato buttons would actually do stuff and could be used with normal pedals etc.