49 replies to this topic

[Vodrin Thales]

lockwoodx, on 10 June 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Compare 1 alpha of 4 MLs to 1 shot of AC/20 in both damage, range, crit potential ect....

Now scale it down further and compare 4 MLs vs a mech that uses 1LBX and 2 MLs.

There is no disadvantage to Ballistics atm. Ammo is only an issue for snipers, as bralwers do not last long enough to warrant "running dry".

Lasers do not 'cut it' when it comes to brawling. You end up with "fewer shots" than a ballistic player due to heat, ammo explosions are not an issue, weight isn't an issue...

I'm sorry but successful brawlers do not use lasers period. The only ones who can semi-compare are light mechs who can run 4-5 MLs without worrying about armor or heat. Apples to oranges tho.

If you are not lasting long enough to expend a reasonable ammo load you are doing it wrong. Medium mechs are not brawlers that can engage continuously and expect to not be ripped apart. You have to skirmish. Moving in fast, hitting once of twice, and withdrawing out of site before taking heavy fire. You can only engage continuously when backing up a more durable target like a Stalker or Atlas (true brawlers).

Point damage weapons are currently easier to use, but lasers are far from ineffective.

lockwoodx, on 10 June 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

Hiding behind your friends is not brawling

No mech under 85 tons can brawl in this game. Any focused fire on a non- assault results in insta-death regardless of weapons. Splat cats and streak cats are strikers so hiding behind team mates is doing it right in that mech.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

lazors are easy to aim weight less have infinite ammo no min range and _probably_ will have some heat damage as well so they equal or even better than ballistic weapons just l2p and dont expect to take ac40 builds headon
and with introduction 12v12 that will replace 8v8 energy weapons will become even more viable

[Rahnu]

Hysteria, on 10 June 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

I would look at your own playstyle in "brawling" as being the problem before pointing at lasers not being powerful enough. If you are using lasers as your primary brawling weapon you should be performing the role of a 'striker'. This means you need to be doing hit and run tactics and taking advantage of your team by attacking from the rear when the enemy is occupied.

Obviously lasers do feel quite dull when comparing them to an AC20 but they do the job and they never run out of ammo. Just keep trying to get the hit and run playstyle down and you will do fine.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

An AC/20 boat an more than ably perform the role of a striker, and in fact will do it far better than a medium laser boat ever can since they can let loose with 40-damage alphas and then run to cover without issue, while a medium laser boat needs to remain exposed for a full second and is quite vulnerable to torso twisting (a problem ALL lasers face, and the reason they are largely inferior to PPCs) as well as overheating.

It is also worth noting due to the crit slot and hardpoint systems that you will never, ever be able to get an equivalent tonnage of medium lasers nor will you ever be able to get an equivalent amount of damage while remaining heat-stable. And that's what really bothers me about AC/40 boats - you will never be able to match them, ever, period, with lasers in the current state they are. There are many very, very good reasons why everyone is boating PPCs right now.

[Lord of All]

Tennex, on 10 June 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

large lasers are a joke at range.

i get hit and i laugh

Please explain how that has any bearing whatsoever to the QQ discussion at hand?

[OneEyed Jack]

Zyrusticae, on 10 June 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

Blah, blah, gloss over one side and accentuate the other, blah

Yeah, you forgot to mention that AC40 also goes slower than a stock Atlas or runs XL with very vulnerable torsos. But let's not let the facts stand in the way. By all means, rant away.

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 10 June 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[Dephylr]

AC 40 actually goes 71.3 kph but i will admit that it is quite vulnerable. Good fun for stomping pugs. On a side note, enough lasers still do the trick (like the 5+ LL stalker)

[MustrumRidcully]

I figure it might be because HSR really rocks and changes the game, or it is because you just can't boat enough 1 ton weapons in MW:O to fill up any heavier mech's arsenal. And that SRMs still deal too little damage doesn't help (but this is of no concern for laser users.).

Probably more of the former, since you still have 5 ton weapons for lasers. Being able to shoot once at your enemy and then twist yoru mech to safety or run to cover is really useful to have, now that you don't get screwed over with lag.

[MustrumRidcully]

Zyrusticae, on 10 June 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

An AC/20 boat an more than ably perform the role of a striker, and in fact will do it far better than a medium laser boat ever can since they can let loose with 40-damage alphas and then run to cover without issue, while a medium laser boat needs to remain exposed for a full second and is quite vulnerable to torso twisting (a problem ALL lasers face, and the reason they are largely inferior to PPCs) as well as overheating.

It is also worth noting due to the crit slot and hardpoint systems that you will never, ever be able to get an equivalent tonnage of medium lasers nor will you ever be able to get an equivalent amount of damage while remaining heat-stable. And that's what really bothers me about AC/40 boats - you will never be able to match them, ever, period, with lasers in the current state they are. There are many very, very good reasons why everyone is boating PPCs right now.

To beat the damage of AC/20s on paper, you only need 8 medium lasers, which is 8 tons and 8 crits, which leaves you with 6 extra tons and 12 extra crits for heat sinks, plus whatever you don't need in ammo, but with 20 more heat per salvo (if you wanted to be as heat efficient as the AC/20 user, you would need 50 extra standard heat sinks or 25 true-Dubs or 36 poordubs)

Obersvations:
1) The game doesn't have many mechs with 8 energy hard points or more. (So maybe making the hard point system even more restrictive is not the solution?)
2) Medium Lasers still deal their damage over time. (what if ACs and PPCs would fire 0.5 second long damage bursts)
3) Heat System still not working sensibly. (Double Dissipation, Half Heat Cap, True Doubles, and see the difference shrink from 50 to 25 standard heat sinks or 13 DHS, which seems reasonable considering the weight savings)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 10 June 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Aim64C]

lockwoodx, on 10 June 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

The new patch has come and gone, and as a primary medium mech player I've found it impossible to brawl without some form of ballistic weapon anymore.

The time to kill is simply too fast making this game more of a glorified deathmatch again and taking a huge chunk of steam out of this otherwise decent patch's success.

Lasers are fine.

I'd actually say that ballistics are the ones that are difficult to make practical. The tonnage and critical investment in ballistics is massive compared to other weapon systems.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I disagree with the OP. One of my most sucessful builds is a 2LLaser, 2MLaser and 2SRM 6 Catapult C1 brawler.

KDR: 2.15
(I'd say average 300 Damage per match, with often as high as 500 or higher).

The key is however, every possible square inch of mech is DHS. Because of this, I can keep firing both LLasers and MLasers togather back to back on most maps without overheating.

What hurts laser builds is often heat buildup. Sure a 4LLaser Cat K2 might sound good, but if after 2 Alphas, you are forced to fire only 2 at a time or chain fire, you aren't fully utilizing your build. I can use the 2LLasers and 2MLasers continously (with SRM support) and I can keep more damage on target longer.

I think most people just go for the big lasers, but don't think about how heat prevents sustained fire.

[Thuzel]

Lefty Lucy, on 10 June 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Try a HBK 4P: 9 ML, 260 standard, endo, max standard armor, fill up on heat sinks. I don't even run cool shot, just cap accel and seismic.

Second that.

I was a hardcore 4sp guy until I bought a 4p to get my skills up. I thought I'd hate it, but I was extremely surprised by that thing. You need to have a more steady hand than in a 4sp, but those lasers can absolutely tear people up. Especially if you're good at heat management. Also on the plus side, it is fun to pilot. Having so many of the same weapon makes the weapon groupings a piece of cake.

Edited by Thuzel, 10 June 2013 - 08:10 AM.

[Fate 6]

MaddMaxx, on 10 June 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

The game didn't create the "glorified death match" the player base did. All most want is "Death Match" thus the ongoing complaints and whines about getting "bs capped".

Welcome to the internet dude. LOL

To be fair, it is frustrating when you kill 6 of the enemy players and then lose the game even though you have 5 mechs standing, because you chose to combat the enemy and the opposing Commando decided to get 0 damage dealt but win the game. I mean, if you're into playing a game that is just a driving simulator, by all means go and run around capping and don't fire a single shot.

That said, there HAVE to be objectives in order for fights to not be a stall-fest, waiting for the enemy to come over the hill first. But on the larger maps, if 2 ppl cap and 6 fight while the enemy has 0-1 capping, the cappers win the game but lose the fight. It's somewhat backwards. If there was a 1000 resource limit we wouldn't see this. The reason to play Conquest over Assault right now, despite the cap battle, is that the resources create a ticking clock that you have to race against to fight the other team, and you can't sit around behind buildings taking potshots forever. You're forced to maneuver to take bases to reduce your chances of loss, but in the end winning the fight doesn't win the game unless you wipe the enemy out quickly.

@OP - yeah, I keep finding ballistics the be required now due to heat and necessary frontloaded damage. Then again, missiles are trash now so that's an issue. We really need to see reduced heat on smaller lasers. If big mechs take advantage of them, go ahead, at least they have to get in close range to use them, and it's not like lasers do a ton of instant damage. An assault with 6 ML can't exactly chase me around in a medium, so I can actually run away if the fight won't go well for me (whereas you can't run away from PPCs, you have to break LoS)

Edited by Fate 6, 10 June 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[LethalMezzle]

I don't know, I think Lasers are pretty good. Maybe Small Lasers could do with a buff, I never really see them being used. Maybe ER Large Lasers could be buffed too, I'm not sure.

It's those Pulse Lasers that need some love, really.

Edited by LethalMezzle, 10 June 2013 - 08:31 AM.

[Huntsman]

Brawling doesn't cut it anymore and that hasn't got a thing to do with lasers.

You build a high heat high burst damage direct fire support mech. If the rare event occurs that a brawler gets too close to you (unlucky for him) you simply burn through your coolant and burn him down, briefly turning your high burst damage build into a high dps build.

Btw the 4p with 9 ml is not a brawler. It is a close range direct fire support mech. Its not fast nor cool enough and its side torso too vulnerable to brawl. You hide behind your atlas buddy, alpha, and slide back to cover. That is your play. If you want to run around and brawl after losing your side torso then fine. You don't have much to lose at that point anyway and maybe you can draw some fire away from your teammates.

[Kitane]

I would love to use 4P if the hit detection was actually working for my 150-180 ping. Every time I run a laserboat, I end up cursing all gods after firing several well aimed alphas at one part of the mech chassis and see the damage being either distributed across the mech, or hitting another component, or just evaporating into air.

I can shoot my 4LLAS into rear RT of a mech with zero transversal speed and then wonder why the *** the armor is only a shade darker...36 points of damage focused on a single component should remove rear armor from that part on almost any mech in the game.

With hit detection this wonky, using a build that needs several well placed shots to win before overheating just doesn't work. Most of the time when I find a target, I put 2-3 carefully aimed alphas at vulnerable spot and then run for my life, because those alphas did half of their intended damage, sometimes even less.

And that's why I often end up playing with shotguns and lurms. Shotguns can deal with lag shield to certain extent and lurms are in hands of server, working (and failing) independently of my ping.
It's better for my blood pressure than spending a lot of time practicing my aim and steady aiming with lasers and then watch dice rolls of lag gods.

[Skyfaller]

The problem is indeed the duration of lasers to apply damage vs the instant damage applied of projectiles/ppc.

If the projectiles were changed into firing 5 rounds and each round being the total damage of the weapon divided by 5 then projectiles would be on par with lasers in applying damage.

[Corvus Antaka]

HSR

[Tezcatli]

I would say they need to look at all the lasers. But not make some massive sweeping changes. I think some people are right about durations. But to lower them, might reduce the distinction, between laser and pulse laser. Personally I think they should take a look at Pulse weapons. Those seem ideal for brawling.

If you're not going to hit and run and avoid damage. And just brawl with them straight up. You get what you get. Especially in a medium. That's not to say they shouldn't take a look at lasers. There's plenty they could do to make them more efficient for brawlers.

[Stoicblitzer]

Jackpoint, on 10 June 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fda8618ad689908

forget lasers , run fast n hit em hard like Tyson.

you built a centurion with an xl engine.

[Rahnu]

OneEyed Jack, on 10 June 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Yeah, you forgot to mention that AC40 also goes slower than a stock Atlas or runs XL with very vulnerable torsos. But let's not let the facts stand in the way. By all means, rant away.

78 kph is NOT slower than a stock Atlas, that is factually incorrect. Let's also conveniently forget the fact that the Cat K2 exists.

But of course, the AC/40 is not nearly as much of a problem as PPC boats at this point in time. PPCs are outright superior to their closest equivalants in lasers (large lasers and large pulses) in every respect that matters, which, combined with the absolute convergence, makes them the strongest weapon system in the entire game. Again, there's no point to ever going for lasers if you can go for PPCs instead.

It would be nice if medium lasers were as heat-efficient as they should be and if the heat cap were reduced down to where it should be (at least half of what it is now) and dissipation were increased accordingly, as that would make laser boats actually worth fielding next to PPC and Gauss/AC40 boats. Though a number of the assault chassis suffer from horribly inept hardpoint configurations...