35 replies to this topic

[One Medic Army]

PEEFsmash, on 10 June 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

The people you are playing against are not that good of gamers, they are not using aimbots. You are either getting cored out by LRMs (LRMs are still silly-good at coring if you don't twist) which can be prevented via torso twist on all mechs besides Dragons and Jenners, or you are getting hit in the CT by PPCs/Gauss which means, again, you are putting yourself out in the open very often without torso twisting (in low-Elo brackets players don't even have that good of aim, so you must be putting yourself out there too much without the right movement).

However, Jenner hitboxes are completely ridiculous, so if you are running a Jenner, it is impossible, literally impossible to protect your CT, and all your complaints are valid. However, if you aren't running a Jenner or Dragon...you probably need to improve your own torso twisting, movement, and positional awareness before calling for balance changes.

Not just Jenners.
Last night I chased around a Blackjack with an open back, using streaks and a couple ML shots (high heat, didn't want to shut down)
The streaks proceeded to ignore his open RCT, despite hitting him dead center RCT, and removed all his frontal armor before they started damaging his internals.

Yeah, in retrospect I should have been saving my heat capacity for ML shots to finish coring him, but there's something seriously wrong when Streaks impacting someone's back remove their front armor.

LRMs fired indirectly do much the same thing to quite a few mechs, since the high angle makes them land on top of the mech, and many mechs count their tops as CT.

[PEEFsmash]

One Medic Army, on 10 June 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Not just Jenners.
Last night I chased around a Blackjack with an open back, using streaks and a couple ML shots (high heat, didn't want to shut down)
The streaks proceeded to ignore his open RCT, despite hitting him dead center RCT, and removed all his frontal armor before they started damaging his internals.

Yeah, in retrospect I should have been saving my heat capacity for ML shots to finish coring him, but there's something seriously wrong when Streaks impacting someone's back remove their front armor.

LRMs fired indirectly do much the same thing to quite a few mechs, since the high angle makes them land on top of the mech, and many mechs count their tops as CT.

Seems like hitbox problems might be as serious of a problem as the streaks themselves. Too bad PGI has said that hitbox changes are not right around the corner, and are using the good ole "oh, we are using the hitboxes to balance mechs" excuse.

[One Medic Army]

PEEFsmash, on 10 June 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

Seems like hitbox problems might be as serious of a problem as the streaks themselves. Too bad PGI has said that hitbox changes are not right around the corner, and are using the good ole "oh, we are using the hitboxes to balance mechs" excuse.

Something I agree with you on.
Hitboxes, especially on the oldest mechs, need to be looked over.
Compare the Raven hitboxes to the Jenner, there's a completely different philosophy as to which parts of the model correspond to which sections.

[PEEFsmash]

One Medic Army, on 10 June 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Something I agree with you on.
Hitboxes, especially on the oldest mechs, need to be looked over.
Compare the Raven hitboxes to the Jenner, there's a completely different philosophy as to which parts of the model correspond to which sections.

Yep, and it makes a HUGE difference. Ravens have sick CT protection with the extended and unconnected side-torso panels, whereas Jenners have literally a cruise ship as a CT, and then side-torsos that are more-or-less glorified armpits. I have NEVER died to LT or RT in my Jenner except when I get hit in the arm by 6PPC stalker and the PPCs destroy my arm, then go straight through and destroy my Side torso as well. Never ever any other time, and I am a torso twisting boss. Torso twisting in a Jenner is almost worthless, because in order to protect your front CT, you must DIRECTLY EXPOSE your rear CT as if bending over for the moneyshot.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 10 June 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[Zyllos]

This whole idea "torso twisting is the only way" really destroys the balance between up front alpha strikes and DPS builds.

Torso twisting should be a viable way to play but not something that is a must. That is why damage needs to be more spread out so that damage isn't so predictable and controllable.

Edited by Zyllos, 10 June 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[One Medic Army]

PEEFsmash, on 10 June 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

Yep, and it makes a HUGE difference. Ravens have sick CT protection with the extended and unconnected side-torso panels, whereas Jenners have literally a cruise ship as a CT, and then side-torsos that are more-or-less glorified armpits. I have NEVER died to LT or RT in my Jenner except when I get hit in the arm by 6PPC stalker and the PPCs destroy my arm, then go straight through and destroy my Side torso as well. Never ever any other time, and I am a torso twisting boss. Torso twisting in a Jenner is almost worthless, because in order to protect your front CT, you must DIRECTLY EXPOSE your rear CT as if bending over for the moneyshot.

Heh, I remember when streaks were king and not even turning your back to an enemy would spare your CT.

Look on the bright side, it's still better than the Cicada: no giant legs, smaller overall hitbox.

[Ningyo]

Yes for very many players hitting CT even at long range is not that hard. And you may want to realize if there are trees near you, they may block your view, but the enemy likely cannot see them at all since vegetation, some buildings and such are only rendered at shorter range on many graphic settings. So having trees in front of you hurts you not them.

[One Medic Army]

Ningyo, on 10 June 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

Yes for very many players hitting CT even at long range is not that hard. And you may want to realize if there are trees near you, they may block your view, but the enemy likely cannot see them at all since vegetation, some buildings and such are only rendered at shorter range on many graphic settings. So having trees in front of you hurts you not them.

Even if they do block view, many of the more experienced players will just let loose dead-center of the red square around your mech and hit you that way.

[jakucha]

Considering how it's the biggest portion on pretty much all mechs, I don't see why it would be any other way.

[Theodor Kling]

Ningyo, on 10 June 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

And you may want to realize if there are trees near you, they may block your view, but the enemy likely cannot see them at all since vegetation, some buildings and such are only rendered at shorter range on many graphic settings. So having trees in front of you hurts you not them.

Which is another problem by itself.
I agree that CT death happens a bit often, but with pinpoint accuracy this will stay.

[p00k]

Zyllos, on 10 June 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

This whole idea "torso twisting is the only way" really destroys the balance between up front alpha strikes and DPS builds.

Torso twisting should be a viable way to play but not something that is a must. That is why damage needs to be more spread out so that damage isn't so predictable and controllable.

no
torso twisting is just using yourself as "cover". as long as there is such a thing as actual "cover" from terrain, alpha builds will have an advantage over DPS builds. the ability to unload a large amount of damage, then wait for your weapons to cycle in relative safety, will always be better than having to maintain LOS to do damage

[One Medic Army]

p00k, on 10 June 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

no
torso twisting is just using yourself as "cover". as long as there is such a thing as actual "cover" from terrain, alpha builds will have an advantage over DPS builds. the ability to unload a large amount of damage, then wait for your weapons to cycle in relative safety, will always be better than having to maintain LOS to do damage

I'd say there's 4 types of attack in MWO currently.
Instantaneous concentrated: the type that tends to cause issues, all the damage in one place at one time, perfectly accurate.
Instantaneous spread: Stuff like SRMs and LBX, it all hits at once, but it's over a large area. Forgives poor aim but is generally weaker.
Duration concentrated: Lasers, MGs, Flamers, AC/2s, pretty much everything that does it's damage as a stream rather than a burst, but can still be aimed. More forgiving in aim than "instantaneous concentrated" and can be steered to deal most of it's damage to one place. The downside is it keeps the person using it from twisting away, and the target can twist to spread the damage.
Duration spread: LRMs, pretty much. Spread out, requires the firer to point at the target. Weakest type of attack, which is made up for with the fact it's auto-targeting.

Each of them has it's downsides, except the first category, which includes things like AC/20, Gauss, PPC.

[Tokra]

First. Twisting torso does not help against this high Alpha hits where you dont even notice THAT you got hit.

Second: i saw on spectrator mode today that some were firing on the left arm of a mech and hitting the center. So much for correct hit zone calculation. I assume this is lag or bad ping on my side. And this makes it even way worse.
And on the other side i saw some who were clear aiming someone for me on spectrator but missing and doing no damage.

[StonedVet]

To help with the no notification theory, I have learned to use my LRM's in a non targeted fashion meaning I wont lock on to a stationary mech to fire, I prefer them getting nailed by LRM's by surprise if they are gonna be dumb enough to sit still in the open.

[Chemie]

LRMs all target the CT...they want to fix SSRM but ignore the CT LRMs???

[Hotthedd]

Tokra, on 10 June 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

But ELO should PREVENT THIS. Why am i playing against these guys who can snipe like mad? Just last game. I didnt even saw THAT i got hit when my CT armor was gone.
he was perma hitting the center while i was moving, and even through trees. I could not even see him, and he was sniping on my center like i was next to him.

Shouldnt the ELO prevent this? I mean mixing good players with average or bad ones?
Not really good for the game when this BASIC matchmaking system is not working!

Hitting the CT is not hard even for "bad" pilots. If you are Alpha striking with enough firepower, you only have to get lucky ONCE.