1263 replies to this topic

[Nastyogre]

A heat penalty for firing multiples of the same weapon? So, I can avoid it by boating 3 PPC's and 3 LL's OK a bit of a change but not giant.

I do not understand constantly avoiding the glaringly obvious. Make the heat scale work like the table top game. Heat rises, you slow down, targetting suffers, multiple shutdown points, ammo explosions. Make the heat scale and heat sinks work properly. So 10 Heat sinks sink 10 points of heat in a reasonable time.

Eliminate pinpoint convergence. Problem solved. Balanced builds, heat neutral or salvo fired builds become the norm.

I just don't get it.

[Rufus Ingram]

(Please forgive me if this was already mentioned. I didn't want to slog through 64 pages of responses)

The penalties seem arbitrary. I know it's a game so all rules are arbitrary to a degree, but Battletech/Mechwarrior already has a built in system of trading off high-heat, low weight weapons or high-weight, low(er) heat weapons. If that isn't functioning well as a core basic balancing agent, then forcing mixed weapons loads through additional heat penalties on top of the existing standard weapon usage seems to miss the problem.

My concern/question is what about the Clan standard variant boat builds? A boating 4 PPC Stalker is an average Warhawk/Masakari (plus presumably 50% more damage for same heat, lower weight, etc). Functionally, even in table top Warhawks could alpha twice without shutting down and do 120 damage. What happens when the clan mech pilots experience these penalties when they should (arguably) be in more effective machines doing that extra damage? It is counterintuitive to penalize them for having advanced mechs.Even more of a concern is a 6 Clan ERPPC boat. In the current system assuming (I know, but let's not consider the conversation that will ensue if Clan ERPPCs don't do 50% more damage) that alpha strike will core everything up through an 85 ton mech in the CT in 1 shot(54 internal, 90ish armor. everyone has some back armor). Without shutting down. Presumably, (and this is a big assumption) any Clan mech that can fit it can carry that many. And cool shot may allow them to fire twice before they shut down. Stalker pilots can confirm/deny that for me. That is disturbing and will not be solved by these added heat penalties. Or, if alphaing 6 ERPPCs has to shut a mech down in order for this to accomplish the desired end, PPCs are just too powerful as currently designed and will only get worse with the Clans.

Separate issue: I appreciate that the example ML hunchback boat was given as an example for the logic behind the limits, and one could reasonably argue that a Warhawk should alternate it's arm firing using the same logic. Okay, assuming that, firing at a mech going 100kph firing in pairs every .5 seconds translates to a target moving 13 meters between shots. That doesn't seem like much, and it is even less for the bigger, slower mechs. Does that solve the convergence issue? I don't boat ERPPCs so I don't know how much alternating fire spreads it out. I do boat large lasers and I already have to track a mech for 3 seconds just to get all my damage to apply and make myself a target the whole time so it's a different experience and I do spread the damage out (I know I'm not that great). Is the added heat penalty supposed to address hit location or just reduce rate of fire?

Last thought. Get rid of cool shot, temporarily before putting in these penalties, and see what happens. It will address the rate of fire side of it at least to some degree.

Still love this game. Going to play regardless of meta just because I'm a fan.

[focuspark]

I still think the heat and convergence issues can be easily resolved and damage distribution made more like tabletop all while keeping point-point accuracy if the devs make a simple change. Weapons are limited to firing one weapon per 0.5 seconds. Ditch the heat multiplier {Scrap}. Have six PPCs? Sure, it'll take 3 seconds to unload them all meaning the target is moving so all damage won't likely end up in the exact same spot.

[DirePhoenix]

focuspark, on 31 August 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

I still think the heat and convergence issues can be easily resolved and damage distribution made more like tabletop all while keeping point-point accuracy if the devs make a simple change. Weapons are limited to firing one weapon per 0.5 seconds. Ditch the heat multiplier {Scrap}. Have six PPCs? Sure, it'll take 3 seconds to unload them all meaning the target is moving so all damage won't likely end up in the exact same spot.

I can only imagine the furor that would be raised from removing group fire, but honestly if the problem is high damage alphas, REMOVE THE ABILITY TO DO HIGH DAMAGE ALPHAS. Either reduce pinpoint accuracy (which doesn't seem likely, given the bent to make this an arcade shooter), or remove the ability to fire groups of weapons at the same time (which also doesn't seem likely b/c too many people are used to doing it already). The heat penalties do NOTHING, especially when the only two consequences (ammo explosion and shutdown) don't happen until you've exceeded your heat capacity or close to it. We don't have movement modifiers based on heat scale. We don't have accuracy modifiers based on heat scale. We don't have pilots blacking out due to high heat.

We need more consequences but as we've seen already, people couldn't even deal with something as simple as repair & reload in a risk/reward mechanic. How do you expect them to deal with not being able to mass all their firepower in a single point, especially after having been allowed to use it for so long?