67 replies to this topic

[Ralgas]

LRMs are fine, it's the direct fire that needs to tone down a notch.

Edit: that said, there are still quirks with the pathing

Edited by Ralgas, 12 June 2013 - 01:34 AM.

[Theodor Kling]

CHWarpath, on 12 June 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

If it were up to me I would ban any lock on weapons because they require zero skill but yes LRMS have been nerfed and rightfully so.

Ever played with them? LRMs need not the aiming skill of a PPC sniper, but they do need proper timing, target selection , coordination wiht scouts if possible.. not exactley a no skillweapon. it's just not gunslinger skill.
And SSRMs also need skill. Well not if used against heavies or assualts, but in a fight light vs light I actually prefer regular SRMs because with both oponents trying to evade shots at 130+ kph keeping someone in your sights long enough to get a lock is not trivial. And potentially dangerous because it limits your movement actions. Unguided weapons in contrast allow for a quick shot between evasive maneauvers.

Edited by Theodor Kling, 12 June 2013 - 01:43 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

The Cheese, on 11 June 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

You misunderstand. I am not suggesting that they should be more powerful than they are. I actually think their base stats are in a good place right now. My point is that they almost never do their advertised damage when they do hit, which is unreliable in itself.

But Cheese, LRMs never did the advertised damage. If to be more accurate, hardly ever did the full damage. LRM20s averaged 12 missiles on target per salvo.16 with Art, TAG or Narc. Again, imo, it is doubled armor that make missiles "feel" weak.

[The Cheese]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 June 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

But Cheese, LRMs never did the advertised damage. If to be more accurate, hardly ever did the full damage.

Exactly! That is precisely why they have been so hard to get right. It's not about how much damage they can do, it's about how much they inevitably waste.

Some people obviously feel different about this, but my opinion is that when compared to other weapons, they waste too much damage to be an efficient use of tonnage and crit space. The clincher is that the waste is completely unavoidable. No other weapon in the game wastes damage by design.

Incidentally, I played a few rounds on an alt account tonight. The standard LRM15 on the trial Atlas did just fine against newbie players who don't move much, but when I got back on my main account, they were practically worthless. So it seems like it's also a skill bracket thing. They need to be forgiving enough to not instagib new players who don't quite have the hang of things yet, but powerful enough to be considered viable by veterans. Man, I do not envy the devs on this one.

Edited by The Cheese, 12 June 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ah, I see your point now Cheese. Missiles have always been inherently wasteful weapons, but that is the bad with the good. At least here you don't normally miss with 40% of your Missiles.

Nice to see that some of the fail of Missiles is that the players have learned to find cover.

[Cheatos]

in regards to LRMs I do think they got it right. The dmg is decent, You can still grab cover but you will be punished severely if you are out in the open getting rained on. This state of LRMs is about as good as it gets

[Glythe]

The problem is that LRMs pale in comparison to the PPC for tonnage and direct on the spot damage. One has ammo issues and the other is unlimited. One gets used ALL the time and one is only effective in groups.

See the issue here? A lighter weapon CANNOT be more damaging than a heavier weapon and both still be viable.


If we were to add a 'bonus tracking modifier' to jumping mechs and add back some of the splash LRMs might be about right.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

It's a disturbing feeling, but yes. They actually feel alright, outside of boating.

[Joseph Mallan]

Glythe, on 12 June 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

The problem is that LRMs pale in comparison to the PPC for tonnage and direct on the spot damage. One has ammo issues and the other is unlimited. One gets used ALL the time and one is only effective in groups.

See the issue here? A lighter weapon CANNOT be more damaging than a heavier weapon and both still be viable.


If we were to add a 'bonus tracking modifier' to jumping mechs and add back some of the splash LRMs might be about right.

Apples and oranges.
PPC=Direct fire weapon

LRM=ire support weapon, meant to rain destruction all over.

You just don't compare the two.

[Gallowglas]

Despite what others might have divined from my other post on this subject, yes, I think they seem fine at the moment. I've seen games in which they were used competently and, thus, seemed powerful and other games in which they weren't effective because they were used poorly. I personally think they're in a good place right now. They actually FEEL like the suppressive support weapon they're supposed to be. Consequently, you're seeing more balanced builds that feature LRM's. Yes, there are still boats, but you're not seeing 5 of them on a single team.

[Novakaine]

Rocket Rocketeers!!!!

[YueFei]

LRMs allow for a concentration of fire that's difficult to achieve with direct-fire weapons. Basically, if you don't wander into the open and give every single enemy mech LOS, you're not going to get focus-fired by nearly the entire enemy team. But LRMs don't work that way. The LRM users can be spaced quite far apart from each other, with no LOS to you, and no LOS to each other, but a spotter finds you at a moment when you have no *hard* cover to hide behind, and suddenly you are getting focus-fired by 180+ LRM salvos from 4 different enemy mechs. That's when it really hurts.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

A correction on my previous reply: They feel infinitely better, but they still hit CT slightly too much. Just slightly. I'm sure the "Target Bone" relocation effort will fix this no problem.

Don't change LRMs beyond that! They're good. Not too powerful, but still a threat you should actively avoid like any weapon.

LEARN TO KILL SCOUTS

[Jun Watarase]

LRMs are not fine because if you are spending tonnage on them, you may as well bring PPC/Gauss and do much better long range damage.

Getting hit by 4 PPCs will hurt. Getting hit by 100 LRMs will simply **** you off, and can be easily blocked by moving behind cover when the missle lock warning shows up on your HUD. Not to mention ECM rendering a team completley invulnerable to it. There is no point in using LRMs when the current metagame is dominated by peope hiding behind cover, walking out for a few seconds to fire a massive alpha and then walking back behind cover. LRMs do absolutely nothing in these scenarios, even without ECM.

I played a game today in which the enemy team had at least 2 LRM boats and we had no ECM or AMS. Worst case scenario. Well, i kept seeing teammates stand out in the open, get demolished by LRM fire and then ***** about it. I got hit by LRMs several times, but it was really easy to just move behind a hill and block most or all of the shots, as well as keeping out of LOS to prevent locks. Eventually we killed most of their spotters, made it within LRM minimum range using cover, and the LRM boats were unable to do anything.

This would have been a LOT harder with the usual PPC/Gauss boating. For one thing i would have gotten cored, instead of taken superficial damage to armor.

[Glythe]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 June 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Apples and oranges.
PPC=Direct fire weapon

LRM=ire support weapon, meant to rain destruction all over.

You just don't compare the two.

Right.... and you wouldn't test drive competing models of cars before buying one or the other? The point is every weapon competes for use on your mech. There is one omni super weapon right now and that is the PPC.

[Screech]

LRM damage is fine, though they core the CT a little too fast. All they really need is to have their spread increased on in-direct fire and maybe move Tag out to 1000m.

[King Arthur IV]

i feel like they are very weak but they do make a difference when using artemis. on another note the turn animation is very comical (zig zags and sharp 90 degree turns) and the pattern is boring (box formation), i guess the crappy pattern allows the ams to do its magic better.

as weak as i think they are, i dont feel like lrms need to be tinkered with for the time being.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Yea, I don't like how nasty LRMs are at the moment, so that means it is probably where it needs to be.

[Tombstoner]

i think LRM range is too short. the spread on LRM is way way to tight.
LRM's should be flying out in a cone like arch. when your near max range the ares of the cone should be about 90 meters across. narc, tag, begal, Artemus should all work to shrink that cone.... from what i have seen all lrm's are basicly hitting the CT.
the only way to spread the damage is to torso change.... this should not be considered a skill based counter. not all mechs benefit equally from torso changing. the awesome and dragon come to mind. game mechanice should not gimp or buff any design

[Zerberus]

Glythe, on 12 June 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

The problem is that LRMs pale in comparison to the PPC for tonnage and direct on the spot damage. One has ammo issues and the other is unlimited. One gets used ALL the time and one is only effective in groups.

See the issue here? A lighter weapon CANNOT be more damaging than a heavier weapon and both still be viable.


If we were to add a 'bonus tracking modifier' to jumping mechs and add back some of the splash LRMs might be about right.

Allow me to rephrase this post usinf 2013 weaponry
________________

The problem is that 120mm artillery pales in comparison to a recoilless rifle or even Barrett M82 .50BMG sniper rifle for tonnage and direct on the spot damage. .... One gets used ALL the time and one is only effective in groups.

See the issue here? A lighter weapon CANNOT be more damaging than a heavier weapon and both still be viable.
__________________

This is why we do not compare apples to watermelons. One is a direct fire weapon designed for aimed shots, the other is primarily meant to suppress the enemy and cause area damage.

Edited by Zerberus, 17 June 2013 - 08:27 AM.