19 replies to this topic

[Khell DarkWolf]

Greetings Mechwarriors,

With the gameplay update coming up: http://mwomercs.com/...te-11-jun-2013/

I felt I had to push this through and finish writing my number crunching to get feedback rolling on these balance changes.

Here are the issues:

• High heat Alpha boats are a dominate loadout in the current meta play as every player gets together to focus fire and literally vaporizes targets with no drawbacks for mech shutdown with tight convergence sniping weapons
  
• DPS (Damage per second) weapons are outclassed by the alpha strike weapons because they actually out DPS the DPS intended weapons. Best of both worlds
  
• Mediums have a rougher gameplay with the ongoing common loadouts with convergence weapons being seen match after match
  
• Brawler (Close range) and/or Hit & Run weaponry playstyles falls a bit on the short stick with not much choice in outdamaging to deviate from the current pinpoint weapon meta
  
• SRMs still need tweaking to help bring some loadouts more up to snuff
  
• Energy weapons are broken, namely pulse lasers and a PPC being not much different and better then 2 medium lasers
  
• Ballistic woes? Perhaps for some certain light and medium mechs. MG's and AC/2's and other things such as the AC/20 being the best literal bang for your buck in close range fights
  
• Heat Threshold and heat dissipation cooling need to be inverted and need some real thought on what it means to be near 100% overheat or have overheated

So lets start with Energy weapons:

Pulse lasers are junk, for a hit scan weapon of a laser they are:

• More expensive in tonnage
  
• Hotter
  
• Shorter ranged
  
• Weaker damage in actual practice
  
• Only moderately faster in recycle time

Basically they are PPC wannabes, they don't recycle fast enough or have the low heat capabilities to be a real DPS weapon. Because even using more than 1 means you start dipping into having a weapon being in a cycle of firing that generates more heat then a single PPC.

A thing about PPC's is that when compared to the medium standard laser, they both have the same:

• Damage
  
• Heat generated per second when in constant use
  
• and cooldown

When comparing a single PPC vs. 2 medium lasers:

• The only difference is you're paying for 5 extra tons to turn your weapon from a 1 second beam into a projectile that does all its damage at once and has more range.

Part of the problem of what happened here is when the heat for the PPC got reduced and then the recycle time got increased to 4 seconds.

What this did was actually make the PPC run much cooler. While the old cooldown may have given you the option to fire it faster, the heat usage was just too low for what it allows you to accomplish.

Lasers need to be reworked and what I'll show here is a complete overhaul to give meaning and choice for mechwarrior pilots all around.

In the chart you will notice that:

• Beam Lasers are your bread and butter. Cheap, cheap cheap. As they were meant to be
  
• Pulse lasers are your close range DPS weapons or quick hit and run the hell out as needed
  
• Pulse lasers are much more suited as attrition weapons, but over a longer period time in this form they gather more heat reasonably
  
• Extended range (ER) variants follow suit of being similar as the same and PPCs are knocked back in line for their intended role
  
• I'm not going to go into the Flamer because I think the upcoming patch change might be okay (we'll see)

Ballistic weapons have had a weird tier going on.

AC/20 is the king end all of that uber CRUNCH for being up close and personal, everything else though kinda needed some love.

• Machine guns are getting buffed in this upcoming patch and was a long needed one. I'll say let PGI handle this one and let it go for now in this coming patch to see where they stand.

• AC/2 should be the purposed longer range rotary that we need, but it is still pretty heavy and by damn hotter then the sun. It also needs to be one of the few close gaps for the lights and mediums to used much more and be a real threat/viable weapon. Lowered weight changes and doubled the ammo per ton with some slightly lowered heat.

• AC/5 I actually think is kinda fine where it is at, but it is still a tad too heavy and is one of the last gap fillers between weight classes. Weight changes along with a 50% increase in ammo per ton actually bring it up to be a better alternative compared to the higher caliber after you see in a moment.

• AC/10 is the one of the two heavy mech class weapons, the only reason it was sitting happy in the middle was because everything else below it didn't challenge it and everything above it was niche. An increase in double the ammo per ton and a slight increase in cooldown now makes it a choice between the middle ground of crunch alpha, middle ground for DPS, and balanced choice for heat generated per second.

• AC/20 being the king has its drawbacks being damn near heavy to hell, but with changes to PPCs it has be tweaked in line at the same time with them. No changes to ammo, but an increase in heat and cooldown to be equal to its original heat per second and punish those who miss their shots now feels right.

Missiles! YAY MISSILES:

• SRMs need a little more kick, they are close but not quite there. Damage per missile increased to 2 from 1.5 gives it them.

• Streaks still being an issue in close range autoaim for some people, here is an alternative. Seperate from SRM stats, with damage at 1 per missile with double the ammo per ton and faster cooldown makes it less alpha damaging (and is cannon to running cooler!)

• LRMs. Eh we still need tweaks for the tracking to move them away from CT lock but other then that. 25% increase in the ammo per ton to 225 just gives the users a little more QoL love (its only an extra 45 missiles)

Compare the new weapon stat chart to the old current one and overview the entire weapon system meta being practical.


The Old & current:



The Re-purposed stats page:




NOW onto heat threshold:

• Cut the battlemech's maximum heat threshold in half
  
• Increase the dissipation cooling from heat sinks to either double its rate or by 50%
  
• Make standard heatsinks increase max threshold and moderately increase cooling
  
• Double HS give more quick cooling, but are poor in threshold

I can't remember who posted this Heat threshold idea so I CANNOT take credit for this heat idea. But it was ideal for something like this to flow and work.

Now the pieces come together.

Lets do the math!

- Khell

[Ralgas]

you forgot gauss, which will just blow your heat balance away

[Khell DarkWolf]

Ralgas, on 12 June 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

you forgot gauss, which will just blow your heat balance away

EDIT: Actually you're right after giving it some thought. It already has enough negatives associated with it but lets see.

We have to increase the cooldown to match that of the other sniper/alpha weapons to 6 seconds.

But the heat is off so we have to increase that as well, lets say put it at 6 as well.

Now it deals 2.5 DPS and generates 1 HPS.

I kinda also think the ammo per ton should be increased to 15 shots just to give it a tiny bit of love.

Edited by Khell DarkWolf, 12 June 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[Volthorne]

You can't go ******* with weapon weights. This has been said only a billion times. When will people learn? Never? Cool.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

If you want to differentiate between burst damage (or alpha damage) and dps, then increase the reload time on high-damage weapons (the 4-second cycle time change on Gauss and later PPCs was a step in this direction) and decrease it on dps weapons (the AC5 refire buff was a step in this direction).

I've long advocated for Pulse lasers to become more dps-oriented by giving them a superior cycle time in addition to their superior burn time. I've also long advocated for the AC5 to get an even larger fire rate buff than it already has.

[Khell DarkWolf]

Volthorne, on 12 June 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

You can't go ******* with weapon weights. This has been said only a billion times. When will people learn? Never? Cool.

This is the only way to break the distinguishing differences in tiered weapons. It'll help give light and medium mechs a little more breathing room because they can equip similar sized weaponry that correctly tiered for them as needed and with the MG buff coming it might even help fill the missing gaps from smaller to bigger weapons.

With these changes atleast, you get a much more distinct feel and playstyle for what the ballistics are intended role is.

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 12 June 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

If you want to differentiate between burst damage (or alpha damage) and dps, then increase the reload time on high-damage weapons (the 4-second cycle time change on Gauss and later PPCs was a step in this direction) and decrease it on dps weapons (the AC5 refire buff was a step in this direction).

I've long advocated for Pulse lasers to become more dps-oriented by giving them a superior cycle time in addition to their superior burn time. I've also long advocated for the AC5 to get an even larger fire rate buff than it already has.

That was what I was aiming for. High alpha weapons currently in the same far out DPS the weapons that are supposed to actually be DPS weapons. It had to be done.

[Nachocheese]

Volthorne, on 12 June 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

You can't go ******* with weapon weights. This has been said only a billion times. When will people learn? Never? Cool.

off course you can lower the weight of weapons, stock loadouts would than just get an additional heatsink or ammo.TT stats should not be taken for a realtime game anyway.

[Volthorne]

Khell DarkWolf, on 12 June 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

This is the only way to break the distinguishing differences in tiered weapons. It'll help give light and medium mechs a little more breathing room because they can equip similar sized weaponry that correctly tiered for them as needed and with the MG buff coming it might even help fill the missing gaps from smaller to bigger weapons.

So completely ******* up canon loadouts is the only way to get things balanced? Something seems counter-intuitive there. Almost like you'd WANT to balance for canon loadouts instead of not?

Nachocheese, on 12 June 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

off course you can lower the weight of weapons, stock loadouts would than just get an additional heatsink or ammo.TT stats should not be taken for a realtime game anyway.

Weight has almost no direct impact on the "real time" portion anyway, and you don't need to go ******* with weight values to balance weapons.

Jesus guys, there are some things you just can't **** around with. Weight and crits are two of them.

Edited by Volthorne, 12 June 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Its a good start, I like it.

However we've got Double armor, so Double Ammo across the board makes more sense. I might actually be able to put those JJs back on my Cats if we got that.

The Heat Threshold part, I don't like the idea of 'halving' that to solve it. The idea I've seen that looks good is;

30 Base Threshold
+1.0 for Single Heat Sinks
+0.5 for Double Heat Sinks

Same Dissipation rate for Single Heat Sinks, but double it for Double Heat Sinks.

It allows SHS to have higher threshold for the investment, but slower cooling while DHS have lower threshold for faster cooling. alphastrike builds should fare better with SHS without overheating but take longer between shots while brawlers or continual fire support would prefer DHS for more sustained dissipation and DPS.

[Khell DarkWolf]

Unbound Inferno, on 12 June 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Its a good start, I like it.

However we've got Double armor, so Double Ammo across the board makes more sense. I might actually be able to put those JJs back on my Cats if we got that.

The Heat Threshold part, I don't like the idea of 'halving' that to solve it. The idea I've seen that looks good is;

30 Base Threshold
+1.0 for Single Heat Sinks
+0.5 for Double Heat Sinks

Same Dissipation rate for Single Heat Sinks, but double it for Double Heat Sinks.

It allows SHS to have higher threshold for the investment, but slower cooling while DHS have lower threshold for faster cooling. alphastrike builds should fare better with SHS without overheating but take longer between shots while brawlers or continual fire support would prefer DHS for more sustained dissipation and DPS.

More or less closer to the same idea.

I have to find that guys thread and link it show it, but you just described what was in it regarding cutting heat threshold and increasing dissipation.

[ExtremeA79]

"AC/2 should be the purposed longer range rotary that we need, but it is still pretty heavy and by damn hotter then the sun. It also needs to be one of the few close gaps for the lights and mediums to used much more and be a real threat/viable weapon. Lowered weight changes and doubled the ammo per ton with some slightly lowered heat."

I don't know how many times I have to say this...



AUTO CANNONS ARE NOT ROTARIES..
NEITHER ARE ULTRA AUTO CANNONS.

IF A AUTOCANNON IS A ROTARY IT IS A RAC-X
RAC's COME IN THE FUTURE, SO DON'T
REFER TO THESE AC/UAC WEAPONS AS ROTARIES.

[Homeless Bill]

I appreciate the work you did on the numbers, but heat and cooldown times will never solve the big problem: being able to put huge amounts of damage on a single component with a single click.

Your solution makes large ballistics shoot less frequently, but the frequency of their shots pales in comparison to their ability to pop something with one or two well-aimed shots. UAC/20 will make things an absolute nightmare. Additionally, it would make the AC/20 far less useful when it's not being boated.

Another shameless spam: http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

Edit: Also, totally didn't realize you're changing weapon tonnage. Immediate pass for me. If it ***** with stock configurations, it isn't going to happen.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 13 June 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[Khell DarkWolf]

Homeless Bill, on 13 June 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

I appreciate the work you did on the numbers, but heat and cooldown times will never solve the big problem: being able to put huge amounts of damage on a single component with a single click.

Your solution makes large ballistics shoot less frequently, but the frequency of their shots pales in comparison to their ability to pop something with one or two well-aimed shots. UAC/20 will make things an absolute nightmare. Additionally, it would make the AC/20 far less useful when it's not being boated.

Another shameless spam: http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

You are correct, its only helps solve a portion of the problem.

I'm reading the thread atm as I write this

As to the Ultra AC/20, I'm not worried about that. It doesn't come until 10 years later of this current time period.

This assumes of course, if were even still here in 10 years to see it

[HarmAssassin]

To the original poster....

Absolutely... NO

The further this game gets from canon the worse it gets.

[Homeless Bill]

http://www.sarna.net...i/Hunchback_IIC

When Clans go in, a new world of suffering and whine will be brought to this game. The fundamental issue has to be addressed now or there's little hope in my mind that it will ever get fixed. Once they add heat penalties or some other bandaid, it will never come off. They'll just keep adding to it to try to twist it to fit whatever pops up as the FOTM. They'll never be able to make it work.

[Khell DarkWolf]

I totally forgot about the IIC.

Touche!

[DocBach]

AC/20 should have its max range reduced to A) add more of a penalty for people who boat the weapon exclusively and give the AC/10 a role; the AC/20 does the same amount of damage of an AC/10 at the AC/10's primary effective ranges.

[Khell DarkWolf]

The range of the AC/20 in general could be reduced, although as far as a penalty.

Tossing around an idea of how to intermix a cone of fire for ballistic general weaponry and "El Bandito's" idea of changing Torso mounted weapons to always and only aim "forward" but with a twist I'm working on.

The result I'm playing with is how to address and prevent something else be the whine of a pinpoint convergence.

[Khell DarkWolf]

Okay, some updated feature changes. (I have already hit the back space for going reverse in pages and erased most of my work so I had to re-do it again several times)

• Changing Machine gun mechanics to be completely gutted and start over
  
• MG is changed to a reload cycle of 0.5 seconds
  
• Projectile velocity is changed to be instant similar to a beam laser
  
• Damage changed to be 1 dmg per shot which = 2 DPS
  
• Sound effect changed to compensate for sounding a little heavier
  
• Visual effects changed to remove spray effect
  
• Machine Guns now operate similar to how they did in MechWarrior 3

Next up is to change the way mechs' play out and how their convergence is different from each other. Because the way we currently have it no matter the range, all weapons converge onto the same targeting spot.


Example photo:




I even took the liberty to draw up some example targeting crosshair reticules for each mech to list as examples. Excuse my crude paint skills, I wanted to add individual weapon variant type crosshairs but simply didn't have time to do it. This is to get the point across:





This makes piloting skill an even bigger factor in how to utilize all your weaponry, reduces some convergence slightly but not perfectly. Each mech is now unique to how it operates dependent on what its hardpoint layouts are.



But I'm not stopping here, next change up is the PPC:

• PPC's projectile changed into a laser/projectile hybrid
  
• PPC projectile velocity reduced to 1500, which is only 300 faster than a Gauss projectile
  
• PPC's mechanics of damage is dealt is done in increments similar to a laser beam but is a traveling projectile.

Example Photo:






PPC is this fashion is now the bridge between a laser and an actual ballistic projectile. This means with it being a hybrid beam projectile that not all the damage is done instantaneously but has to fully absorb into the target location.

Slower mechs are more susceptible to taking the full shot, whereas fast moving mechs might only be clipped with a partial of the shot.


I still have to update the reworked weapons chart and will be looking into what clan weapons be introduced and see if I can theory craft a proposed alteration of what these changes would look like a grander scale.

I'm still advocating that we should have an even bigger increase in armor across the board by about 50% to 100% (translate to double the current armor values). Means more time to kill which currently in game is still too low and needs to be raised.

Increasing ammo for each ton to compensate for not only our current armor values for changes I've already proposed here in this thread. It also means an indirect-buff to machine guns or anything that is purposed to be a crit seeker (which we need a MG buff anyway).

I'm also advocating that this information is ofcourse without Paul's Heat penalty system.

http://mwomercs.com/...42#entry2558842


Post your feedback.

- Khell

Edited by Khell DarkWolf, 15 July 2013 - 04:01 PM.

[Khell DarkWolf]

How would you guys feel if lasers in torso's/head were exempt from the hard point firing change posted above?

Or should it apply period, for all weapons like it already is suggested.