24 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

Well we know how it was in mw4, if something was in range, it appeared on radar, pretty simple.

After watching the dev videos describing the information technology, it appears that your generic radar, by itself will be fairly useless, without some tech device mounted on a scout class mech.(BAP?)
Or those little flying scanners I saw in the video.....

What about IFF? Will that exist in this game?

And what about your teamates, will they be automatically detected on your radar, and you know where they always are if in range? or will you only be able to see teamates by LOS, just like enemies....

And if you do see all teamates on radar, logically, theres no reason not to detect all enemy mechs too. Is this a hole in their idea of info tech?

Of course we havent played it, but Im concerned how 'unfun' this kinda of sensor combat could turn out to be.

And light, medium mechs WERE very useful in mw4(and all other verrsions) competitive play. I dont know why they make it sound like they werent....
I personally took down assaults and heavies an innumerable amount of times in light or medium mechs.... as im sure many a skilled pilot did.

Im very concerned about the fun factor of this new infotech system. Not to mention its not BT accurate, either...

Edited by Teralitha, 07 June 2012 - 10:56 PM.

[Euphor Kell]

i don't see a problem with it.

they created a "Problem" to solve another Problem, while at the same time, giving us the opportunity to solve both problems at the same time.

the original problem was that there was no real teamwork in multiplayer games. or to be more concise, everyone was playing as if it was single player and looking out for their own.
that means that you had to be self-sufficient to be good, which is counter-productive to teamwork.

the solution is to make people be severley limited by what they can do themselves, cripleing them if they want to go solo. therefore, teamwork is required, and supported with the "class" types

a good thing, as far as i can see

[Telthalion]

Every teammate will always be visible on radar because they constantly transmit their location to each other.

Enemies show up on every teammate's radar, but only if at least 1 friendly has them in range and in line-of-sight to provide their location.

This increases strategic possibilities because you can, for example, move in behind a hill without your enemies automatically seeing you pop up as soon as you get within 1km. Which in turn gives you at least the possibility of pulling off a surprise attack, as long as the enemy team's scouts don't find you first and give away your plan.

As for IFF: it's inherent in the system and quite obvious in the videos. Friendlies are blue on your radar, enemies are red. Friendlies have blue arrows over their heads, enemies who are visible on your radar have red arrows over their heads.


Personally, I like how they're doing the radar. Though I'd love to see it gain some depth with alternate scan modes (seismic detection, magnetic resonance, aerial drones, what have you) and environmental effects on radar functionality. But a lot of that would also need to have maps specifically designed to make the various modes more or less appealing.

[Teralitha]

When you have 'lone wolf' class of players, joining random games, you still have the same thing. Only actual teams will benefit from using infotech.

You are way off in that everyone in multiplayer games only played as if it was single player. That isnt even logical. They played multiplayer, to play WITH other ppl on a TEAM.

There was no problem to solve with infotech radar. It only creates a new dynamic, which on appearance only, seems to me it will be only frustrating in random matchup games. Actual teams will like it I would think, but no fun for the random pubber.... In effect, they created a problem, and didnt solve anything, because ppl used scouting in previous versions of mw already....

I dont know why the developers have this perception that light scout mechs were somehow useless or ineffective in older version of mechwarrior when that simply was not true. Havent played this yet... so we'll see.

Edited by Teralitha, 07 June 2012 - 11:50 PM.

[Teralitha]

I guess what I really mean by IFF, is IFF jammers. Making you an unknown on the field. They had it in mw4, though it didnt really work like it should, you still knew it was an enemy if it had the IFF jammer. All it did was make you hard to spot by reticle scanning the horizon.

Edited by Teralitha, 08 June 2012 - 12:01 AM.

[Telthalion]

IFF jammers could be a really sticky issue for balance if they're ever implemented. As you said, making yourself a neutral target doesn't change the fact that everyone knows who you are anyhow.

Ideally (from a realistic perspective) it would make everything show up as an enemy on your enemies' scopes, forcing them to manually decide whether to shoot or not. But from a gameplay perpective that would be a nightmare in a chaotic close-quarters battle.

If it only affected the radar, but not your HUD, it would be largely useless.

It might work the other way around; making everything show up as a hostile on your HUD without affecting your radar, forcing you to double check every time you pick a new target. But that would still be a serious pain. You might be able to offset it by giving it a very short effective range - anyone standing outside looking in wouldn't be affected at all.


All in all, I think the game would probably be better off without any kind of IFF jamming. Unless they come up with a brilliant solution that's effective, but not brokenly so. (Maybe let us toggle our ECM gear to ECCM mode to cancel it out?)

Edited by Telthalion, 08 June 2012 - 12:55 AM.

[Max Liao]

Teralitha, on 07 June 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

When you have 'lone wolf' class of players, joining random games, you still have the same thing. Only actual teams will benefit from using infotech.

Good. Like in every other MMO, i believe that guilds, squads, and teams should have an inherent advantage. I may be forced to lone wolf this game myself, if I can't convince my friends to give it a shot, and in no way do I think that I should be able to play on par with a team.

Anything that encourages people to join/create teams and NOT lone wolf is better in my opinion.

Teralitha, on 07 June 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

... Actual teams will like it I would think, but no fun for the random pubber.... In effect, they created a problem, and didnt solve anything, because ppl used scouting in previous versions of mw already....

I fail to see the problem they created. I prefer limited intelligence/double blind BattleTech to no fog of war, and I think this dynamic helps to capture that.

Teralitha, on 07 June 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

I dont know why the developers have this perception that light scout mechs were somehow useless or ineffective in older version of mechwarrior when that simply was not true. Havent played this yet... so we'll see.

I'm not so sure it was ineffective as much as it was underutilized (and certainly LESS effective), and with 'role warfare' this development (at least in concept) is something I can't wait to see in action.

[Oppi]

Teralitha, on 07 June 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

And if you do see all teamates on radar, logically, theres no reason not to detect all enemy mechs too. Is this a hole in their idea of info tech?

Lancemates would of course stay in contact (in person or via board computers), so it's quite obvious that you'd see them on your radar. No plothole there ...

Quote

Im very concerned about the fun factor of this new infotech system. Not to mention its not BT accurate, either...

oO ?

Yes it is. They always had scouts relaying enemy positions, not to mention that radar could never "see through walls" like it could in most MW games. They had IR and magnetic anomaly scanners for that, but those also had their problems and inaccuracies, so scouts were always important in the lore.

Quote

When you have 'lone wolf' class of players, joining random games, you still have the same thing. Only actual teams will benefit from using infotech.

That's not true either. Lone wolfs will not play as if it was "Deathmatch, last man standing", they'll be like mercs only that they don't belong to a merc corp, so when a lone wolf joins a match he'll always be assigned to a team and the info warfare system will apply to him as well.

Edited by Oppi, 08 June 2012 - 03:44 AM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Oppi, on 08 June 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

That's not true either. Lone wolfs will not play as if it was "Deathmatch, last man standing", they'll be like mercs only that they don't belong to a merc corp, so when a lone wolf joins a match he'll always be assigned to a team and the info warfare system will apply to him as well.

and they will have to learn to use it, i don´t see any problem but the lazyness of some ppl to think in larger scales then just their own reticle...

[Xendojo]

This might be just me....but this is all pure speculation until we get in game and see what MM does with lances/loners. And I really can't see any decrease in fun factor because of role warfare, that idea just seems silly to me. You pick a mech to pilot, and that's your role! It's a choice you make before you get in game, so you know what your going to be doing beforehand. And the ideal will be that you get placed in a team where the role you picked fills an empty spot on the team. Again, really this all comes down to matchmaking, and we can't judge that yet.

[Vodkavaiator]

Electronic warfare and information warfare in general is a huge part of modern warfare, I see no reason why it should not be an important aspect of MW:O.

If anything it adds much needed depth and provides a use for the often recently neglected ECM mechs or recon mecs.

[Teralitha]

Vodkavaiator, on 08 June 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

Electronic warfare and information warfare in general is a huge part of modern warfare, I see no reason why it should not be an important aspect of MW:O.

If anything it adds much needed depth and provides a use for the often recently neglected ECM mechs or recon mecs.

Im saying that THIS version of electronic info(role) warfare could be 'unfun' , frustrating to deal with . Sure a novelty at first, but after awhile... loses its appeal. We will see, in time, if I am right or not. I do rather hope I am wrong, though. I want the game to be fun always.

Edited by Teralitha, 08 June 2012 - 06:44 AM.

[Frostiken]

Vodkavaiator, on 08 June 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

Electronic warfare and information warfare in general is a huge part of modern warfare, I see no reason why it should not be an important aspect of MW:O.

If anything it adds much needed depth and provides a use for the often recently neglected ECM mechs or recon mecs.

This.

One of the most agonizing parts of Mechwarrior games to me has been the fairly simple, shallow implementation of sensors, ECM, etc.

There is *so much* you can do with it. In my mind, a mech with an ECM package should be like an EA-6B, EA-18, or EF-111, where actually managing the ECM and using it properly is almost a game unto itself, where sensor warfare and knowing when or when to not trust your radar is an important skill.

[Lycan]

Teralitha, on 07 June 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

You are way off in that everyone in multiplayer games only played as if it was single player. That isnt even logical. They played multiplayer, to play WITH other ppl on a TEAM.

Really?

Then why is it that in every single CoD or BF3 game that I watch my sons play, it's every man for himself? And he actually got called all kinds of nasty names because he was actually trying to play tactically and cover his. supposed, teammates.

That seems to be the type of crowd that's drawn to "competitive" type games. (And one of the reasons I cringe every time I hear MWO grouped in that category). Once a game becomes "competitive" a good majority of the player-base seems to stop caring about team play and starts to focus on bumping their stats and becoming "Leet". And they will do anything and everything to make sure their stats are the highest . . .whether it's kill count, win/loss ratio, whatever.

YMMV though . . .

[Death Mallet]

I'm super-excited about the fog-of-war element.

I think its one more thing to distance itself from run and gun shooters.

[Teralitha]

Lycan, on 08 June 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

Really?

Then why is it that in every single CoD or BF3 game that I watch my sons play, it's every man for himself? And he actually got called all kinds of nasty names because he was actually trying to play tactically and cover his. supposed, teammates.

That seems to be the type of crowd that's drawn to "competitive" type games. (And one of the reasons I cringe every time I hear MWO grouped in that category). Once a game becomes "competitive" a good majority of the player-base seems to stop caring about team play and starts to focus on bumping their stats and becoming "Leet". And they will do anything and everything to make sure their stats are the highest . . .whether it's kill count, win/loss ratio, whatever.

YMMV though . . .

I dont think people focusing on stats has ever been an issue with a mechwarrior game. But, you could be right about this one.... we will see.

As for having stats, I would like to see where I am compared to the rest. In previous mw games, the only stats were on ms zone, and they only supported it for what... a year? Otherwise if you were in a player made league, you had some stats to refer to as well. But I never played caring about bumping my stats. It was about fun and competition. I dont know what will happen here... but hopefully their stat making system doesnt promote the thing you fear.

Edited by Teralitha, 08 June 2012 - 07:07 AM.

[Frostiken]

The majority of CoD and BF3 mechanics are built to reward playing for yourself, though. Ranking up weapons, vehicles, etc.

It's not hard to see why people play like that.

[Roland]

Lycan, on 08 June 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

Really?

Then why is it that in every single CoD or BF3 game that I watch my sons play, it's every man for himself? And he actually got called all kinds of nasty names because he was actually trying to play tactically and cover his. supposed, teammates.

That seems to be the type of crowd that's drawn to "competitive" type games. (And one of the reasons I cringe every time I hear MWO grouped in that category). Once a game becomes "competitive" a good majority of the player-base seems to stop caring about team play and starts to focus on bumping their stats and becoming "Leet". And they will do anything and everything to make sure their stats are the highest . . .whether it's kill count, win/loss ratio, whatever.

YMMV though . . .

The thing is though... those folks who aren't play tactically? They're not really playing at a competitive level.

Every game will have garbage players who think that their individual scores are more important than anything else... But those guys are never going to be the top players in the game.

Any top tier team, even in games like CoD, actually functions as a group. They aren't just jumping in and going for high individual scores.

[RainbowToh]

Teralitha, on 07 June 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

When you have 'lone wolf' class of players, joining random games, you still have the same thing. Only actual teams will benefit from using infotech.

You are way off in that everyone in multiplayer games only played as if it was single player. That isnt even logical. They played multiplayer, to play WITH other ppl on a TEAM.

There was no problem to solve with infotech radar. It only creates a new dynamic, which on appearance only, seems to me it will be only frustrating in random matchup games. Actual teams will like it I would think, but no fun for the random pubber.... In effect, they created a problem, and didnt solve anything, because ppl used scouting in previous versions of mw already....

I dont know why the developers have this perception that light scout mechs were somehow useless or ineffective in older version of mechwarrior when that simply was not true. Havent played this yet... so we'll see.

I dont think that light mechs are ineffective generally, but the uber radar of mw4 n mwLL meant every enemy mech within radius of your radar is known to you, regardless of terrain. Therefore the need to scout is undermined. And I remember reading the novels, radar isnt terribly reliable. Terrain hinders it, buildings block most of it, hence the usage of different modes, magnetic/groundmovement/etc, to maximise effectiveness, n gold old sensor mark one

[Roland]

Quote

but the uber radar of mw4 n mwLL meant every enemy mech within radius of your radar is known to you, regardless of terrain. Therefore the need to scout is undermined.

The sensor warfare in MW4 wasn't actually that trivial... Sure, some folks just ran around with their radars on all the time, but the good teams didn't.

There was a high degree of utility for scout units especially ones equipped with ECM... The ones with ECM+BAP like the Loki and Raven were invaluable.

You just needed to be aware of how the radar system worked... Because the radar definitely didn't pick up all mechs around you, no matter what... Having ECM would restrict the range at which people would see you on radar, as would turning off your active radar... Shutting down your mech would reduce the range dramatically, to something like 100m.