22 replies to this topic

[Unbound Inferno]

Edit: Before I forget, take this with a healthy dose of /sarcasm - I'm not really thinking this is a solution. Just a thought that came to mind.

An odd thought came to me amidst the discussions lately and it all tied into something about PPC.

Their danger in the boating of damage is the pinpoint accuracy of the weapons. The simple click and shoot.

But why not Lasers? We don't see the same level of calling out on them when they are boated. Kind of bugged me for a while as to why until I realized it.

Duration.

Lasers have a long 1 second duration. Pulse Lasers are less and PPC? That's on-demand damage - despite showing in MWO a stream of energy.

But what if it wasn't?

Imagine this;

PPC
3 slots
7 tons
7 or 10 Heat
10 Damage
0.5 second duration
4 second recharge

ERPPC
3 slots
7 tons
11 or 15 heat
10 damage
0.5 second duration
4 second recharge

The heat? I'd say return to what it ought to be, but it might be okay to stay with this. As for what it does? It prevents the instant damage. It gets spread - basic movement forces it to be off slightly. Yet the short duration still leaves it a cut above Lasers and Pulse Lasers, however it helps keep the damage spreading in most other instances so its not so concentrated.

No hassle over fixing convergence, no nerfing or hacking heat scales with solutions that don't solve the issue - a simple fix in the existing system to solve it. But most would likely only see it as a nerf that'll knock it out of the sniper kingdom. I wouldn't mind, personally either way. I'll use it when its appropriate and certainly wouldn't mind the ease on the sniper dodging.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 13 June 2013 - 05:32 PM.

[Jonneh]

So then they're just super-pulse lasers?

Doesn't seem like a good fix really, we're just removing weapon diversity to resolve an issue. At some point we need to face the weapon issues with a full balance and iteration pass to decide what "role" each of the weapons is meant to fill, and balance it accordingly.

[AnnoyingCat]

I don't get it

[Unbound Inferno]

Jonneh, on 13 June 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

So then they're just super-pulse lasers?

Doesn't seem like a good fix really, we're just removing weapon diversity to resolve an issue. At some point we need to face the weapon issues with a full balance and iteration pass to decide what "role" each of the weapons is meant to fill, and balance it accordingly.

Sounds like a PGI option, really. I mean that's all that ECM and BAP does on the on/off switch of LRM/Streaks at the moment.

Would be nice if we could - but to be honest your talking about overhauling the entire weapon balance scheme from where it is now. I'm not sure they'd want to do that.

[Roland]

Ppc's do not need to be nerfed.

Short range weapons need to be buffed.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Roland, on 13 June 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Ppc's do not need to be nerfed.

Short range weapons need to be buffed.

Not even that much Roland, relative speed needs to increase so that brawlers can get in range and armor values need to go up as well. Then greatly reduce the JJ nerf so that you can actually use JJ and have fun but run the risk of getting over ran.

[mike29tw]

Roland, on 13 June 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Ppc's do not need to be nerfed.

Short range weapons need to be buffed.

People are complaining that PPCs and Gauss are killing mechs too quickly, if you buff brawling weapon to make them as effective as PPCs, it will be CoD all over where you could die to someone as they look at you for a second.

[Mimic]

I think AC20 bullet need duration time too - like 0.3sec or something.

[stjobe]

Have a look at http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC:

"The Particle Projector Cannon (or PPC) is a unique energy weapon. PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy."

It was always a beam weapon, so I do think they should implement it as such in MWO as well, and not as the faux-ballistic it currently is.

Mimic aka Viper, on 13 June 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

I think AC20 bullet need duration time too - like 0.3sec or something.

And I think all ballistics should fire in bursts of about 1 second (except the LBX). It would put energy weapons on par with lasers as far as pin-point damage goes, and would go a great ways towards diminishing the pin-point problem.

Edited by stjobe, 14 June 2013 - 01:33 AM.

[Toxik]

Just add a 0.5s delay when shooting with the PPC, would make more sense as a nerf and would require more skill to use while still keeping it intersting.
To be honest I am getting tired of all the PPC boat out there, but I understand why people take them. Why bother with AC20 or LL or LPL when you can have pinpoint accuracy weapon that so easy to use.
A AC20 has got so much against it compare to PPC, weight (due to amo) and slots usage, two ppc are equivalent in damage but use 4 less slots and have better range and you do not need take amo with them. Sure it generate more heat but I do not think that's really a problem with a 4s cooldown. PPC wins.

[MustrumRidcully]

The AC/20 also has another advantage when boated - you have a neat 4 second window between shots where you can twist your torso. of course the advantage of the 4 second window is better at long range, where you can actually move into cover without the enemy just following you. But still, it's an advantage.

Try that with an Atlas that has an AC/20, Large Lasers and a load of SRMs.


---

Changing all weapons to a type of "short burst" weapon would indeed fix the problems of high alpha + pinpoint precision to a large extent.

And if ballistics keep a projectile speed, you can't even claim that you lower diversity. You just change the non-hit scan type of weapons.

I would probably keep the duration relatively low - 0.25 seconds for weapns that deal 5 or less damage, to 0.5 seconds for weapons between 5 to 15, and 0.75 seconds 15+ damage projectiles perhaps.


AC/2: Fires 2 projectiles over 0.125 seconds, then goes on cooldown.
AC/5: Fires 5 projectiles over 0.25 seconds, then goes on cooldown.
AC/10: Fires 10 projectiles over 0.5 seconds, then goes on cooldown.
AC/20: Fires 10 projectiles over 0.75 seconds, then goes on cooldown.
Ultra-AC/5: Just as the AC/5, but with double shot it fires twice as many projectiles, but for 0.25 seconds longer.
LBX-10: It fires just once, no duration, but it fires 10 projectiles at once.
Gauss Rifle: Fires 7 projectiles over 0.75 seconds, then goes on cooldown.

We are also no longer required to have each AC/x deal x damge per shot - we redefined the number to stand for the number of projectiles fired with a single burst.

i would probably use this to make the AC/2 deal more damage per burst, but lower its rate of fire.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 14 June 2013 - 02:50 AM.

[Toxik]

Doesn't the PPC has the same cooldown than the AC20? You can also torso twist with the PPC.
I like the idee of firing a burst that would disrupt a mech as well as inflicting damage but I think the AC weapons are not too badly balanced, they are taking more slots and require amo, the energy one don't.

[Mechteric]

I'd rather keep the PPC as a instant damage weapon, seeing as its the only energy weapon that can do this and to separate it from the laser crowd. Besides the binary laser if implemented will pretty much serve this role as a high damage laser based weapon.

Rather the PPC's heat should be adjusted (probably close to where it was months ago), and maybe it should eventually get splash damage too so the amount of damage to the spot that was hit will be less while giving a bit of damage to adjacent body parts.

[BulletChief]

they need to weigh more or produce more heat.
currently they are way out of line with lasers...

[Amsro]

mike29tw, on 13 June 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

People are complaining that PPCs and Gauss are killing mechs too quickly, if you buff brawling weapon to make them as effective as PPCs, it will be CoD all over where you could die to someone as they look at you for a second.

You should be able to run into a couple mechs and be able to take them all in out your mech if your a better pilot, currently armor/damage ratio is so nerfed you need 3 mechs to take out another effectively.

This in turn makes the game predictable because you can be sure that a good team will be a 8 man swarm of mechs.

Assault mode is just silly with this giant group mentality. The meta lacks and real tactical gameplay and diversity.

[ExtremeA79]

Yes PPC's fire a stream. Evident in mw4 intro when that uziel blows chunks of armor off that vulture. It fires a quick and fast stream of particles that slam into a mech. In mwo it looks more like a ball of energy with a trail. Mw4 is closest to resembling the ppc truely.
I do not think however that this change should be implemented.

[Mechteric]

Darren Tyler, on 14 June 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Yes PPC's fire a stream. Evident in mw4 intro when that uziel blows chunks of armor off that vulture. It fires a quick and fast stream of particles that slam into a mech. In mwo it looks more like a ball of energy with a trail. Mw4 is closest to resembling the ppc truely.
I do not think however that this change should be implemented.

Except in-game MW4 wasn't a stream, but did all its damage up front, which is exactly what their lasers did as well.

That said, if the PPC were turned into a 0.25 second stream I wouldn't be completely upset, it just shouldn't be anywhere near as long as the lasers.

[process]

CapperDeluxe, on 14 June 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

I'd rather keep the PPC as a instant damage weapon, seeing as its the only energy weapon that can do this and to separate it from the laser crowd. Besides the binary laser if implemented will pretty much serve this role as a high damage laser based weapon.

Rather the PPC's heat should be adjusted (probably close to where it was months ago), and maybe it should eventually get splash damage too so the amount of damage to the spot that was hit will be less while giving a bit of damage to adjacent body parts.

I agree completely that the PPC should remain an instant-damage weapon to differentiate it from lasers. The problem with the PPC at the moment seems to be that you get two perks with only one trade-off: high pinpoint damage and range, but only moderately high heat.

I think there are two divergent solutions here that depend on the role that the PPC should play.

If the PPC is to remain an energy sniper weapon, the heat should be high enough to balance its damage potential. This won't put an end to long range sniper fights, but it will reduce the effectiveness of those mech builds.

An alternate solution is to make the PPC less specialized by introducing an AOE that distributes damage over a wider area as range increases, perhaps keeping it pinpoint at shorter ranges. At the very least, this seems more visually consistent with the beam that is fired. This leaves the fragile Gauss rifle as the dedicated sniping weapon. I haven't thought about how this would function in relation to the LBX-10.

Edited by process, 14 June 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[mike29tw]

process, on 14 June 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

I agree completely that the PPC should remain an instant-damage weapon to differentiate it from lasers. The problem with the PPC at the moment seems to be that you get two perks with only one trade-off: high pinpoint damage and range, but only moderately high heat.

I think there are two divergent solutions here that depend on the role that the PPC should play.

If the PPC is to remain an energy sniper weapon, the heat should be high enough to balance its damage potential. This won't put an end to long range sniper fights, but it will reduce the effectiveness of those mech builds.

An alternate solution is to make the PPC less specialized by introducing an AOE that distributes damage over a wider area as range increases, perhaps keeping it pinpoint at shorter ranges. At the very least, this seems more visually consistent with the beam that is fired. This leaves the fragile Gauss rifle as the dedicated sniping weapon. I haven't thought about how this would function in relation to the LBX-10.

Or a min range of to make sure that it stays as a long range weapon.

[Syllogy]

I see more AC40 Jagers than I see PPC Stalkers. What is your solution for fixing those?