21 replies to this topic

[Rhialto]

How, I think, (ER)PPC should work:

First things first:

• How Ballistic/Missile work: when we 1st take control of the Mech, all ballistic and missile weapons are already loaded and ready to fire. When we fire, heat is generated then right after we can hear the sound of next ammos being loaded. Perfect.

• How Laser works: this is basically energy on demand. When we fire a laser, energy is sucked up continuously to emmit the light beam and of course, heat is generated in the process. Visually the heat effet is ok for normal lasers but it would be nice to see the heat grow in pusle when pulse laser are used. But that is not the point here.

Now for (ER)PPC:

Those are kind of Ion Canon, right? How I see them work is that they require a lot of energy before being fired.

Three changes:

• Energy build up delay of .2 second per PPC (.3 for ERPPC) when charging
  
• Only one at a time can be charged, as it require a lot of current (energy)
  
• Heat apply only when they are charging, this mean before being fired

This would mean that when you press fire on a single PPC, the charging process begin and last for 0.2 second and this is where heat should be generated. Then the ion beam should launch.

You got 3 ERPPC you want to fire all at once? Fine. What should then happen is 3 x 0.3 second would be required to charge each ion canon individually. Remember that charging more than one would require too much current and would melt the electric wires. So after pressing fire, you would very quickly see the heat climb, let's say to 20% (in 0.3 second), then 40% (after another 0.3 second), then 60% after a last 0.3 second and then only the ion beam would launch. All this charging delay would be accompanied with a new sound effect.

So if you plan on ERPPC from a far distance, you would have to consider the small delay (0.9 second in this case) to alpha fire pinpoint a target, which is not always easy. Even more challenging with JJ active!

If you want to shoot twice in a row without proper cooling 1st, we see here that the mech would shutdown on you on the building phase. If you have override enabled with the O key, the energy would build up like you asked but you'll get past 100% and have to deal with high risk of blowing up a component, so I don't see anyone abusing this.

As it is currently, I think it's not logical to walk with a PPC or ERPPC charged in a 'fire ready' state all the time. This should require way too much energy and throw heat constantly (like walking around with 60% heated all the time) and of course, having all that energy stored and ready to fire could very well blow up if hit and instantly destroy a component, and expose all nearby teamates to the enemy due to the nature of disabling electronic devices like a teammate with an ECM.


What do you all think (dev team included)?

Haven't created a poll... could have with answers like Brillant! and Dumb! but I prefer to read reply instead which bump the thread to the top each time. Also the Like button works just fine (glad there is no thumb down!) . Don't be rude, I never played table top and such, was just thinking how I see it, it's well possible that it makes no sense but I doubt.

Edited by Rhialto, 13 June 2013 - 10:09 AM.

[Neolisk]

Rhialto, on 13 June 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

How I see them work is that they require a lot of energy before being fired.

This is a very good point, but let's keep it simple. Right now PPC fires and then you shut down. With your suggestion you first shut down, and then... you don't fire because you shut down, so you just wasted your "turn" and lots of heat. Boating problem solved.

[Rhialto]

Neolisk, on 13 June 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

With your suggestion you first shut down, and then... you don't fire because you shut down, so you just wasted your "turn" and lots of heat. Boating problem solved.

No, if you are already hot and try to fire 3 (ER)PPC then the charge up process won't occur and you would heard the buzzing sound (like the one when you try to fire guided missile without lock).

If you have override enable then yes, the charging process would occur and (ER)PPC will fire but going over 100% can have devastating consequences.

[Neolisk]

Rhialto, on 13 June 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

No, if you are already hot and try to fire 3 (ER)PPC then the charge up process won't occur and you would heard the buzzing sound (like the one when you try to fire guided missile without lock)

I am trying to keep close to the current mechanics of MWO. Right now none of the weapons stops firing when a heat limit is approaching. This should not be an exclusion. First you charge, then you fire. BTW, I did not mean just ER-PPCs here, regular PPCs should have the same mechanics.

[ExtremeA79]

Entirely non canon.
There is a PPC variant that does charge up before firing, but it comes like 10-20 years later.

[shellashock]

Darren Tyler, on 13 June 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Entirely non canon.
There is a PPC variant that does charge up before firing, but it comes like 10-20 years later.

Then how exactly does canon show a ppc fire? Does it always run with a ready fire status? If this is the case, then capitalize on the fact that all the energy is stored in a way that makes it possible to cause an explosion if released. Make it like the gauss in other words. It still has lots of health compared to the gauss, but it generates lots of heat, so it can be justified to have current health. Make it have 85% chance to explode if the (er)ppc gets hit, and if it is destroyed without exploding, then good job, you just escaped 20 damage. Does this sound reasonable? Does this idea even fit in with canon?

Note that all of the numbers shown might need to be tweaked depending on the situation.

[ExtremeA79]

shellashock, on 13 June 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Then how exactly does canon show a ppc fire? Does it always run with a ready fire status? If this is the case, then capitalize on the fact that all the energy is stored in a way that makes it possible to cause an explosion if released. Make it like the gauss in other words. It still has lots of health compared to the gauss, but it generates lots of heat, so it can be justified to have current health. Make it have 85% chance to explode if the (er)ppc gets hit, and if it is destroyed without exploding, then good job, you just escaped 20 damage. Does this sound reasonable? Does this idea even fit in with canon?

Note that all of the numbers shown might need to be tweaked depending on the situation.

shellashock, on 13 June 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Then how exactly does canon show a ppc fire? Does it always run with a ready fire status? If this is the case, then capitalize on the fact that all the energy is stored in a way that makes it possible to cause an explosion if released. Make it like the gauss in other words. It still has lots of health compared to the gauss, but it generates lots of heat, so it can be justified to have current health. Make it have 85% chance to explode if the (er)ppc gets hit, and if it is destroyed without exploding, then good job, you just escaped 20 damage. Does this sound reasonable? Does this idea even fit in with canon?

Note that all of the numbers shown might need to be tweaked depending on the situation.

Yes it is on a ready to fire status. That is why there is a recycle time, the PPC is drawing power from the engine. This is the same for lasers as well. That is why there is a recycle time for these weapons.
That or there is some other process going on when recycling. That means when firing a weapon, it immediately draws power from the engine to fire.

What ERPPC's need as a nerf, is the removal of no minimum range. I am sure that only Clan ERPPC's have no minimum range. In exchange for this nerf, the range of this weapon should increase, to capitalize the idea of a longer range weapon for more heat.
If this change is implemented, I would like to see the ability to turn off the field inhibitor in a PPC, removing minimum range, but causing damage to yourself if you fire.

[shellashock]

What change are you referring to exactly? My suggestion, or the op's? Also, would it make sense to make the ppc family like a gauss and have a chance to explode? The thing is considered the king of energy, so it should have a down side besides lots of heat. I mean,a ppc is a massive energy cannon that is so powerful that it fires like a ballistic. It is extremely fast, and has really good damage for it's size and weight, so it is likely that it is using tons of capacitor power. All of this energy is locked up in a tight space, and it should explode like a bomb if it was released quickly from a breach in the ppc's charging block. The gauss's explosion is caused by mass unintentional energy release that is built up to launch the slugs at the enemy, so why not the same for the ppc? The only difference is the level of hp for the ppc compared to the gauss, and this is offset by the faster speed and high heat generation.

[LauLiao]

No. That cooldown after you fire the weapon? Consider that the recharge time. Because that's like, you know, what it is.

Darren Tyler, on 13 June 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

I am sure that only Clan ERPPC's have no minimum range.

Incorrect. IS ERPPCs don't have minimum range either. The only difference between Clan and IS ERPPCs is that Clan ERPPCs do 15 damage instead of 10. The problem isn't the weapon, it's the boating thereof, but that is going to be fixed.

[Unbound Inferno]

No.

The PPC system is unique vs lasers since it produces recoil - an aspect that isn't included in the game so it doesn't matter right now. ERPPC's unique aspect with longer range is the elimination of no minimum range from the standard model - at the cost of even more heat.

Its drawback has been and should be high heat.

How you are doing it? I'd pass. Its not how the system works for them.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ERPPC

Also, I would think this belongs in Gameplay Balance not Feature Suggestions.

[ExtremeA79]

I agree, it isn't the weapon. It is the ability to boat 6 and have no penalty even though the heat must be skyrocketting to 200%

shellashock, on 13 June 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

What change are you referring to exactly? My suggestion, or the op's? Also, would it make sense to make the ppc family like a gauss and have a chance to explode? The thing is considered the king of energy, so it should have a down side besides lots of heat. I mean,a ppc is a massive energy cannon that is so powerful that it fires like a ballistic. It is extremely fast, and has really good damage for it's size and weight, so it is likely that it is using tons of capacitor power. All of this energy is locked up in a tight space, and it should explode like a bomb if it was released quickly from a breach in the ppc's charging block. The gauss's explosion is caused by mass unintentional energy release that is built up to launch the slugs at the enemy, so why not the same for the ppc? The only difference is the level of hp for the ppc compared to the gauss, and this is offset by the faster speed and high heat generation.

PPC's, again, do NOT have capacitors. That is the future variant.
If PPC's explode when destroyed, it would only make sense to do the same to lasers as they cooldown/charge the same way.
The power comes from the engine. I don't think any nerf should be done to PPC's. I believe that hardpoint sizes will solve most of these boating problems.

Unbound Inferno, on 13 June 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

No.

The PPC system is unique vs lasers since it produces recoil - an aspect that isn't included in the game so it doesn't matter right now. ERPPC's unique aspect with longer range is the elimination of no minimum range from the standard model - at the cost of even more heat.

Its drawback has been and should be high heat.

How you are doing it? I'd pass. Its not how the system works for them.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ERPPC

Also, I would think this belongs in Gameplay Balance not Feature Suggestions.

Recoil is not present as the mech has stabilizers, anti recoil systems, gyro, etc.
And how is a weapons recoil going to move the mech that shot it anymore than the mech that is getting shot.

[Aslena]

innovative idea however you wouldn't be able to hit anything with a delay like that so the weapons would be unusable

[shellashock]

Darren Tyler, on 13 June 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

PPC's, again, do NOT have capacitors. That is the future variant.
If PPC's explode when destroyed, it would only make sense to do the same to lasers as they cooldown/charge the same way.
The power comes from the engine. I don't think any nerf should be done to PPC's. I believe that hardpoint sizes will solve most of these boating problems.

ok then just read the sarna definition. From what I got from sarna and you, the ppcs and lasers draw the power from the engine and store it in the weapon itself, correct? Then if both lasers and ppcs could be destroyed and cause damage, it would obviously make sense for varying levels of energy to inflict varying levels of damage. ppcs cause 20 damage, er large laser causes 15, pulse large laser 12, large laser 10, pulse med laser 7, med laser 5, etc. This might help balance energy builds out compared to ballistics and missiles. Missile and ballistics only cause damage if ammo explodes, with exception to gauss. All energy weapons are ammo-less, but they explode themselves. Might be an interesting way to balance things out considering energy weapons might become more valuable then other weapon types when 12v12 comes out. Also, didn't the devs say that they are opposed to hardpoint sizes?

[ExtremeA79]

shellashock, on 13 June 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

ok then just read the sarna definition. From what I got from sarna and you, the ppcs and lasers draw the power from the engine and store it in the weapon itself, correct? Then if both lasers and ppcs could be destroyed and cause damage, it would obviously make sense for varying levels of energy to inflict varying levels of damage. ppcs cause 20 damage, er large laser causes 15, pulse large laser 12, large laser 10, pulse med laser 7, med laser 5, etc. This might help balance energy builds out compared to ballistics and missiles. Missile and ballistics only cause damage if ammo explodes, with exception to gauss. All energy weapons are ammo-less, but they explode themselves. Might be an interesting way to balance things out considering energy weapons might become more valuable then other weapon types when 12v12 comes out. Also, didn't the devs say that they are opposed to hardpoint sizes?

Interesting, yes, yes indeed...

Wait what they are opposed??
Oh great.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Firing delays are toxic to game play. They kill weapon systems.

Here is how PPCs and ERPPCs should work:

1 - PPC minimum range causes damage fall-off, as it does now, but instead of losing the damage it is instead suffered by the location where the PPC is mounted. This reflects the canon reason for the minimum range being a thing in the first place.

2 - PPC has a slower flight speed, closer to AC5. ERPPC has a faster one, close to AC2, to reflect its greater accuracy.

3 - Recharge time and heat both get bumped up again. 4.5 might be a good starting point, and +1 heat to both weapon systems. Longer recharge time makes them worse at brawling while leaving them nearly the same when sniping. Increased heat helps to keep their overall heat per second similar to how it is now despite the lower fire rate.

4 - Soft penalties when running hot. Max speed should be lowered, torso twist and leg turn rates should be reduced, arm reflex should be hindered, and weapons across the board should suffer JJ-style inaccuracy. All these things should vary with your position on the heat scale. No penalties at low heat (say, below 25%), but as you pass a threshold they start to kick in. They begin as very minor inconveniences (1% deviations) and increase as your position on the heat scale increases (capping out at, say, -25% when you hit 100%).

5 - Hard penalties when running very hot. If you exceed 100% your mech shuts down to avoid damage. If you Override, then you take internal damage until your heat drops below 100% again. If you push your heat past 150% (or some other number TBD) then you die instantly to permanent engine shutdown (your engine kills itself pending a full maintenance cycle due to the likelihood that your careless heat management damaged the shielding or something). Finally, if you push past 125%, even if you don't Override, then you take internal damage despite being shut down until your heat drops below 125%. This stacks with the Override mechanic, so you take a bunch of damage if you are in Override mode and past 125% heat.

These changes will make the PPC a direct fire-support option or a sniper weapon without it out-performing the brawling options. They will also make high-heat builds very dangerous to run, while adding an element of skill to heat management that is lacking in our current system (where most of the skill is in two areas - knowing how much to push without shutting down, and knowing when to use Override and when not).

The changes to projectile speed will make the ERPPC into a superior sniper weapon (and will prevent super-groups of mixed ER and Standard PPCs from being nearly as accurate as they are now), while the PPC's lower heat will keep its place as a superior direct fire-support option. The minimum range change will make exclusive boating of PPCs very dangerous and promote the use of secondary weapons (or at least a single ERPPC).

[Rhialto]

Aslena, on 13 June 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

innovative idea however you wouldn't be able to hit anything with a delay like that so the weapons would be unusable

You already do this when you fire some ballistic on a fast moving target at a distance...

You have to learn and master every weapon...

[Volthorne]

Darren Tyler, on 13 June 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

PPC's, again, do NOT have capacitors. That is the future variant.
If PPC's explode when destroyed, it would only make sense to do the same to lasers as they cooldown/charge the same way.
The power comes from the engine. I don't think any nerf should be done to PPC's. I believe that hardpoint sizes will solve most of these boating problems.

Uh, so how do you store the massive quantity of energy needed to fire the PPC? Space magic? If you draw it directly from the engine when firing, you'd be limited in how many you can fire (because the engine can only supply so much power at once) and how long they take to fire (the engine only supplying so much power again). To be an "always ready" weapon the PPC NEEDS to have capacitors to store the energy charge. There is literally no other way to do it.

Capacitor PPCs just have more capacitors than regular PPCs, btw, so they can store "multiple" charges for more frequent firing (one set of capacitors is always on standby when the other set is charging) or fire stronger shots less frequently.

Lasers, on the other hand, have a recycle rate because they need to cool down or else risk fracturing the focusing lens. The amount of power needed to create a visible beam of light is pretty damned high, but nowhere near as high as firing a mass of energy as a "solid" object.

Schooled, son.

Edited by Volthorne, 13 June 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Volthorne, on 13 June 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

Uh, so how do you store the massive quantity of energy needed to fire the PPC? Space magic? If you draw it directly from the engine when firing, you'd be limited in how many you can fire (because the engine can only supply so much power at once) and how long they take to fire (the engine only supplying so much power again). To be an "always ready" weapon the PPC NEEDS to have capacitors to store the energy charge. There is literally no other way to do it.

That is why they are hot weapons, and why energy weapon heat levels go up so much the more powerful they are. You do indeed draw directly from the engine when firing, which causes your fusion engine to spike its output and thus generate excess waste heat. It's the same reason why running faster increases your heat level (more power draw for faster myomer movement leads to extra waste heat).

The Gauss, notably, does have capacitors, which is why it is so low-heat and why it explodes when it gets destroyed.

[Volthorne]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 13 June 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

That is why they are hot weapons, and why energy weapon heat levels go up so much the more powerful they are. You do indeed draw directly from the engine when firing, which causes your fusion engine to spike its output and thus generate excess waste heat. It's the same reason why running faster increases your heat level (more power draw for faster myomer movement leads to extra waste heat).

The Gauss, notably, does have capacitors, which is why it is so low-heat and why it explodes when it gets destroyed.

So, still following the "recycle rate is the recharging" thing, which would be how they're "fire on demand/always ready" weapons, where so they store the charged-up energy? It's clearly not feasible to draw enough energy from the engine within a nanosecond to fire it as a "solid" mass. Thus, PPCs must have capacitors.

Gauss rifles don't get hot because they fire inert projectiles and don't use chemical propellant.

[Aslena]

Rhialto, on 13 June 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

You already do this when you fire some ballistic on a fast moving target at a distance...

You have to learn and master every weapon...

no this would give you the normal lead time plus an additional lead time that changes based on the number of weapons you fired it would make it unusable in most cases as the timing would change all the time and any weapon that does that and has a longer lead time than ballistics would be useless in the current game meta

Edited by Aslena, 13 June 2013 - 11:03 PM.