Jump to content

Would You Be Fine With A Cone Of Fire Or Diverging Convergence?


459 replies to this topic

#41 Traigus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 303 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:29 PM

View PostSybreed, on 13 June 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

the only real limitation of this system is the current weapon grouping system... how do you add cones of fire when you have 2-3 weapon groups with different weapons and therefore different move penalties?


Use the worst cone to generate HUD circle but have the smaller cone weapons hit in an "invisible" smaller circle closer to center. They would just always hit more center target than the worst one.

If I were aiming a LBX at you it would be a big circle, but my mlasers would hit very close to center

--- ( { O } ) ----


( )circle of worst weapon
{ }circle of "ok" wepaon (invisible)
O circle of best weapon (invisible)


Or have one different colored circle per group weapon type (with color marked on weapon list on HUD, but that would look like an olympic symbol doing magician ring tricks.

But if you just had the worst circle showing.. it would be "all weapons will be this spread or better". and people would pick up pretty fast which ones would be more centered in their builds

#42 One Medic Army

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,985 posts
  • LocationBay Area, California

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:29 PM

View PostSybreed, on 13 June 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

perhaps switching groups using the arrows shows the selected group current circle and that's it. Most people will put their most important guns on group 1 and 2 anyway and will always have group 1 selected. For the rest of your weapons you're just gonna go with your guts. I don't really have a better idea.

Well, we could have several concentric circles around the reticule(s), and hide them when the fire group's on cooldown?

You could probably just go with some numbered horizontal pips converging and diverging from the central (torso) reticule to give people an idea of the amount of cone they've got on each group.

#43 Lootee

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 1,269 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:30 PM

View Postarmyof1, on 13 June 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:


You must never have played CS.


Hit any player anywhere besides an arm or a leg with the AWM and they die. If they didn't die on the first hit they are guaranteed to die from the 2nd. Pretty much just like the mass AC/40 and PPPPPPPC spam in this game.

#44 armyof1

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 1,770 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:31 PM

View PostOne Medic Army, on 13 June 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

You'll have a decent sized cone if you're firing PPCs while at high heat, which is where you get firing PPCs with any rapidity.
It's not about missing, it's about not concentrating the damage.

If I take 6 PPC shots to the side torso I'm pretty screwed, if I take 2 to the side torso, 2 to the center torso, 1 to the arm, and 1 to the leg I'm not nearly as close to death.


Having a cone of fire always means missing even when you're aiming right at the target. Especially considering how vastly different sizes we have on our mechs, if you want shots to spread over an atlas, then the same spread will mean you'll miss with a couple or maybe even all of your PPCs, UAC5s or whatever on a commando. That will undoubtedly lead to firing center mass just about every time, which you see in any game with cone of fire. And that means the whole game mechanic with different mech parts targetting becomes almost meaningless. Sure you might hit a leg, but that's just because the random generator made it so within your firing cone.

Edited by armyof1, 13 June 2013 - 06:37 PM.


#45 Mahws

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 670 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:35 PM

Without something to address pinpoint accuracy the game is going to self combust when we get clan weapons. It either has to be an accuracy nerf or a change in the hardpoint system to decrease large weapon boating.

Clan tech won't improve armor, but it'll be a massive spike in alpha strike damage and general damage.

60 point alpha strike Stalkers are intimidating, 90 point clan ERPPC boaters will one hit K/O anything under 60 tonnes and two hit K/O anything in the game.

#46 Haruspex Pariah

    Member

  • PipPip
  • 41 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:38 PM

Wouldn't the cones simply be based on the maximum effective range of the weapons? A PPC would have a narrower cone than a medium laser for example. If you stood at the maximum range of the PPC, put the cross hairs on the general center of a mech, and fired, the cone should be as such that you have a good chance of hitting the target (somewhere). Then add modifiers for movement/damage/heat where necessary (devil's in the details).

Fact is, there is no compulsion on PGI's part to stick religiously to previous MW titles or even TT rules. They doubled armor per ton, for Blake's sake.

#47 One Medic Army

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,985 posts
  • LocationBay Area, California

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:38 PM

View Postarmyof1, on 13 June 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:


Having a cone of fire always means missing even when you're aiming right at the target. Especially considering how vastly different sizes we have on our mechs, if you want shots to spread over an atlas, then the same spread will mean you'll miss with a couple or maybe even all of your PPCs, UAC5s or whatever on a commando. That will undoubtedly lead to firing center mass just about every time, which you see in any game with cone of fire. And that means the whole game mechanic with different mech parts targetting becomes almost meaningless. Sure you might hit a leg, but that's just because the random generator made it so within your firing cone.

Or you just keep the cones small when using long range weapons, so you don't miss the commando, but you don't land all 6 shots to it's core either.
You know, like I enumerated on P1 of this thread.

View PostOne Medic Army, on 13 June 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

If such a system were to be implemented, then it should be implemented both individually for every weapon mounted (no more all hitting the same spot) and each weapon should have it's own accuracy coefficient so that their relative accuracy to one another can be tuned.
For instance, the Medium Laser should have a larger cone (higher coefficient) than the Large Laser. Why? Because the Medium Laser is intended to be a shorter range weapon.

As to specifics on the cone's size, every weapon, when aimed dead center on a stationary mech at the weapon's optimal range (270m for ML) should be guaranteed to hit, even at the largest cone size.

This means that missing a target entirely is caused either by the fault of the firer, or by using the weapon outside optimum range.
When firing past optimum, or targeting a small sub-are of an enemy mech then reducing the cone's size via standing still, cooling down, or other such measures would be required.

Edited by One Medic Army, 13 June 2013 - 06:39 PM.


#48 armyof1

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 1,770 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:39 PM

View PostPanchoTortilla, on 13 June 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Hit any player anywhere besides an arm or a leg with the AWM and they die. If they didn't die on the first hit they are guaranteed to die from the 2nd. Pretty much just like the mass AC/40 and PPPPPPPC spam in this game.


Yeah and especially torso twist, that often saves me in CS. Come on man, you're making a horrible comparison and you know it.

#49 One Medic Army

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,985 posts
  • LocationBay Area, California

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:40 PM

View Postarmyof1, on 13 June 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

Yeah and especially torso twist, that often saves me in CS. Come on man, you're making a horrible comparison and you know it.

In CSS people don't have momentum or turn radius.
Fact is that the mech in this game, even lights, tend to move in a very predictable manner.

#50 armyof1

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 1,770 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:43 PM

View PostOne Medic Army, on 13 June 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

In CSS people don't have momentum or turn radius.
Fact is that the mech in this game, even lights, tend to move in a very predictable manner.


Good you pointed that out, because I was replying to claims about how MWO currently is like CS, which it most certainly is not.

#51 Lootee

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 1,269 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:44 PM

View PostOne Medic Army, on 13 June 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

In CSS people don't have momentum or turn radius.
Fact is that the mech in this game, even lights, tend to move in a very predictable manner.


In CS you can bunny hop too.

Here even with torso twist they can shoot you in the crotch or back of the head and it will still count as a CT hit.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 13 June 2013 - 06:44 PM.


#52 One Medic Army

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,985 posts
  • LocationBay Area, California

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:46 PM

View Postarmyof1, on 13 June 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Good you pointed that out, because I was replying to claims about how MWO currently is like CS, which it most certainly is not.

Yes, hitting people in CSS is much much harder to do.
And that's not even getting into headshots.

#53 armyof1

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 1,770 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:46 PM

View PostPanchoTortilla, on 13 June 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

In CS you can bunny hop too.

Here even with torso twist they can shoot you in the crotch or back of the head and it will still count as a CT hit.


Yeah and in CS we have all kinds of different sized targets too that run at different speeds. Yeah I can see all the common traits with MWO now.

#54 Slashmckill

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • The Wrench
  • The Wrench
  • 127 posts
  • LocationIn One Of My Medium Mechs Pelting You With AC Rounds

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:46 PM

View PostOne Medic Army, on 13 June 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

In CSS people don't have momentum or turn radius.
Fact is that the mech in this game, even lights, tend to move in a very predictable manner.


^ this

In CS or TF2 or any other Fps game you can never truly tell what someone is going to do, in MWO all mechs have momentum and all mechs can't change directions/speed on a dime, you can quite clearly see where even the fastest of light mech is going to go when he turns. (Mwo is far too slow for 100% accuracy)

Edited by Slashmckill, 13 June 2013 - 06:48 PM.


#55 Sybreed

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,199 posts
  • LocationQuebec

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:46 PM

View PostOne Medic Army, on 13 June 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Or you just keep the cones small when using long range weapons, so you don't miss the commando, but you don't land all 6 shots to it's core either.
You know, like I enumerated on P1 of this thread.

and the cone gets way bigger when you move and use long range weapons, whereas short range weapons' cone doesn't get affected as much by movement.

#56 One Medic Army

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,985 posts
  • LocationBay Area, California

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:50 PM

View PostSybreed, on 13 June 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

and the cone gets way bigger when you move and use long range weapons, whereas short range weapons' cone doesn't get affected as much by movement.

Personally I'd prefer to not nerf using long-range weapons on the move, but that's mainly due to how much people are currently "hill peeking".

Really there are self-movement penalties already in-game, try running around at full speed in a light mech and the differences in terrain level will throw your laser aim off, much worse than anything an assault or heavy gets.

#57 Lootee

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 1,269 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:51 PM

View Postarmyof1, on 13 June 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:


Yeah and in CS we have all kinds of different sized targets too that run at different speeds. Yeah I can see all the common traits with MWO now.


Hey you're the one who accused Sybreed and Medic of wanting to turn this game into CS first remember ?

Or did you forget all the ways the game would still be different even if they added a larger convergence area.

#58 Levi Porphyrogenitus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary
  • Mercenary
  • 4,763 posts
  • LocationAurora, Indiana, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:51 PM

The number one rule with any Cone of Fire mechanic must be to have it cause small deviations.

Implementing a cone of fire that caused you to miss targets in your optimal range would be a poor way to go. If you're missing when firing past optimal, while using JJs, and while running hot, you should find it difficult to hit your target at all. In other words, stacking modifiers should get to be prohibitive if you're really getting a lot of them.

To examine the situation of snipers hiding behind a hill while harassers try to mess with them:

Let's say there's a 4 PPC Stalker behind a hill, and a 6 ML Jenner coming at him.

Stalker is stationary and below the heat penalty threshold (he's at base running temps, in other words). Jenner is moving flat out and is at base running temps, so he has a minor cone on his lasers (for moving at 100% throttle).

Jenner fires first, since he comes at the Stalker from behind. He gets most of his lasers on the same location, but one deviates enough to hit an adjacent zone. His heat spikes a bunch.

Stalker turns and fires back. He has a minor accuracy penalty since the Jenner got inside 90m (the minimum on his PPCs), but he's cool and not moving much so that's the extent of his penalty. He blows through the Jenner's front Armor on both his CT and LT. His heat spikes a bunch.

Jenner fires again, this time with a much larger cone of fire due to his spiked heat. He's close enough now for it not to matter as much, but he still can't focus all the lasers on one point. Two of them deviate enough to hit an adjacent zone (given the point-blank range most would still hit the same hit box). His heat spikes even more, and now he's moving much slower and having trouble keeping his sights on the enemy due to lower twist and turn rates.

The Stalker fires again, this time one of his PPCs misses entirely (due to combined minimum range and heat penalties) and the other three each hit different locations on the Jenner. His heat gets very close to 100%.

Jenner fires a third time and his heat gets quite high. He wasn't able to track the Stalker as well as he'd like, so he was aiming for its nose, which meant half his lasers missed wide. The others all hit the CT. His speed drops even more and he starts to steer quite sluggishly. He decides to disengage and makes for a hill.

The Stalker tries one more shot. The Jenner has moved out of the 90m minimum, but the Stalker's heat is now really high. Still, he connects with one PPC that blows out the Jenner's rear armor on its RT. The heat spike blows the Stalker past 130%, causing internal damage until it drops below 125% (the pilot did not Override). He stays shut down until below 90%, when the automatic shutdown disengages. The Jenner makes it over the hill and out of the Stalker's engagement envelope.

Does all that seem bad? I rather like it. Mechanically-speaking, it seems reasonable to add an element of imprecision when pushing your mech out of its nominal operating conditions. Whether that means moving full-throttle (I prefer tying it to throttle rather than actual speed, as that normalizes the penalty for all mech builds, and the movement penalty should be minor even when moving flat-out) or pushing the envelope with your heat, it would add an element of skill to the gameplay.

Do you push your mech harder and risk missing a vital shot, or play more carefully and land shots more reliably but possibly lose out in other ways? The more in-game risk-reward decisions that must be made, the more real skill enters in to the equation.

Stationary snipers would still have brutal alphas for their first shot after cooling down, but they would suddenly not be nearly as dangerous in sustained combat (which is as it should be for a sniper build). There would suddenly be a reason to drive at something other than full throttle. Heat efficient builds would have a real place in combat. All in all, I suspect this mechanic, if done carefully, would be great for the game.

#59 Screech

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 2,290 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:53 PM

LIke the idea.

Instead of a cone would it be able to have the weapons be pulled toward their respective hardpoint location. So if you are running hot and on the move or what not, the weapons in left arm pull somewhat left, right arm somewhat right, head up some, ect.

#60 Traigus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 303 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:59 PM

View PostLevi Porphyrogenitus, on 13 June 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:


The Stalker tries one more shot. The Jenner has moved out of the 90m minimum, but the Stalker's heat is now really high. Still, he connects with one PPC that blows out the Jenner's rear armor on its RT. The heat spike blows the Stalker past 130%, causing internal damage until it drops below 125% (the pilot did not Override). He stays shut down until below 90%, when the automatic shutdown disengages. The Jenner makes it over the hill and out of the Stalker's engagement envelope.



I personally want auto shutdown gone. You wanna shoot a lot, dance with the devil you brought and take the damage. it is actually very hard to overide the shutdown and take damage in MWO.

I'd like it off and make people much more careful of crossing the line.

Edited by Traigus, 13 June 2013 - 06:59 PM.






5 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 5 guests, 0 anonymous users