51 replies to this topic

[Malora Sidewinder]

as it stands, the map caustic is good for a few things, and bad for many many more.

It rewards LRM abuse. this isn't as problematic as it once was (closed beta i'm looking at you) but it's still taking a no-skill element of the game and giving it serious perks... more than it SHOULD have, if you ask me.
now this is just a minor flaw, and one could even call it... you guessed it! a feature.
sometimes you NEED lrms to be better than normal.

but the way caustic is set up, it seems to me that it punishes skill. How, malora sidewinder, could a map possibly *punish* skill!? some of you must surely be screaming at your screen in nerdrage, coating your monitor with mouthbreathing spittle.

i'll explain it nice and simple for the unwashed masses that seem to frequent these forums.

Caustic has two low grounded bases, with a high middle ground.
In tactics, taking the high ground with cover is normally a no-brainer. however, due to the heat inside the high ground, taking the high ground is essentially suicide. you can charge *through* the high ground and over the caldera to the other team, and this may work, but...

if the enemy is good, they'll sit back and pick targets and rip your charge to pieces. it doesn't matter if you outweigh them several full tons, the caldera is set up so that one or two of your guys will be visible at a time, meaning the enemy team has no CHOICE but to focus fire them.
think about that. it TAKES AWAY the ability of the average pug to be as terrible as he can possibly be.

if the team is terrible, they'll be mounting a charge *around* the side of the caldera, and you'll end up being able to take their base.

if the team is average, some take your base, leaving you to duel with them over theirs and most likely get capped yourselves.

so... what's the best solution?

camp.
charging for either side is suicidal. in order to mount an offensive you must lose cover and subject yourself to enemy sniper fire *with them invulnerable to being shot back at* or take lrms like it's your job.

it's harder to mount an offensive movement, and most effective if you split your group and use unit cohesion to attack two separate sides that come together to pincer the enemy, divide them, or flank them.

you can't do that on caustic, because if you do, you get *****. hard. horribly.

caustic, the way it's set up, promotes camping. just like how wolves are more intelligent than deer because it's harder to hunt than it is to evade, caustic rewards lower skilled players by letting them dig in and punishing players who try to use skill to overcome their opponents.

i'm not saying it's impossible. far from it, and most of the time a coordinated unit will slaughter pugs regardless of the map.
but in competitive play, caustic often degenerates into a WHO CAN SIT HERE FOR LONGER, HMM!? match that nobody enjoys.

anyone have an alternative view to submit? or do we all agree that caustic blows?

note: I know alpine is worse. but that map has been bashed to death and i'm sure the devs know that nobody likes it.

[hammerreborn]

Strange, because caustic to me is running to the other sides ridge but not over it, throwing up a UAV and watching the fireworks.

[Whiplash!!!]

It's my favorite map, period.

If you can convince your team to run with you through the wooded area, you can usually stomp the other team. Ideally you do have 2 LRM mechs with you.

Taurmaline, on the other hand, is terrible.

[Zordicron]

I find the exact opposite. Smart flanking and caution and good play is rewarded in the extreme in Caustic. Foolish play means you die a horrid death.

dont go to the mountain. Go to the side. scout the enemy. Dont camp once you find out where they are. Flank. Dont get them between you and base, unless they are going for your base. Then emerge from the side and rear and blow half of them away before they know whats going on.
Going around the caldera lets them cap? Fine, let them go, and keep right on going around and blast them in the backs. Their Fatlas will be first to die, as their over eager cap happy lights run way ahead to get a start, and that dragon or cicada or speedy cent went along hoping to find an easy AFk to blast.

If you derp around and play peek a boo, or stand on top of a hill to line up you "skill" PPC boat shots, then you die, and you earn a ltpn00b.

I actually rate Caustic as one of the top tactical maps to play on. Field awareness is paramount to victory there.

[Judas Augustine]

I'm no super-skilled player or anything, but I've had pretty decent luck with skirting the outside of the map and flanking the other team as they sit and wait for us to come up over the Caldera. Good luck getting anyone else on your team to follow, though.

[Ranek Blackstone]

Judas Augustine, on 15 June 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

I'm no super-skilled player or anything, but I've had pretty decent luck with skirting the outside of the map and flanking the other team as they sit and wait for us to come up over the Caldera. Good luck getting anyone else on your team to follow, though.

Pretty much this. The caldera is SUPPOSED to be a double edged sword. The commanding sight lines let you dominate most of the map, but the high heat limits what you can do with it. Mean while one edge is forests and hills, providing good cover, while the other side has little cover but lots of water to use for cooling.

It's arguably one of the best maps I've ever played on in any game. Every possible path on that map has both pros and cons to be abused and exploited.

[Frisk]

TL:DR

Someone spoiler for me and let me know if the OP is just whining...

[Zerberus]

^^ Essentially, yes, Frisk. He`S just sugarcoating it with some condescending insults toward the main body of the community and some logical fallacies. Reading past

Quote

some of you must surely be screaming at your screen in nerdrage, coating your monitor with mouthbreathing spittle.

i'll explain it nice and simple for the unwashed masses that seem to frequent these forums.

was entirely optional.
____________________________

Caustic punishes "Hulk want smash robots in middle of map" players, especially the ones incapable of managing their heat.

With or without "skill" (BTW understanding map layout and tactical positioning is also a skill, one most of these people obviously lack.).

Edited by Zerberus, 16 June 2013 - 12:49 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Caustic is nothing but one giant ridge hump. It's the only map I actively hate for the map itself.

[Appogee]

Malora Sidewinder, on 14 June 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

...but the way caustic is set up, it seems to me that it punishes skill. How, malora sidewinder, could a map possibly *punish* skill!? some of you must surely be screaming at your screen in nerdrage, coating your monitor with mouthbreathing spittle.

i'll explain it nice and simple for the unwashed masses that seem to frequent these forums...

The pomposity of your pontificating became unbearable at this point, so regrettably, I could not read further.

Edited by Appogee, 16 June 2013 - 12:25 PM.

[Unrelenting Farce]

I love to hate Caustic. I think it has my highest win rate (I know it did by a huge number before Alpine was released) because I can manage heat (my mechs usually run hot to begin with, with the few that carry gauss rifles being especial treats when I get Caustic). Also, I do not use LRMs.

Geez, now I need to go look at my win rates, which went down the ******* when brawlers got nerfed and when I tried teaching 3 new players, only one of whom is any good now...

[Petroshka]

Malora Sidewinder, on 14 June 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

but the way caustic is set up, it seems to me that it punishes skill. How, malora sidewinder, could a map possibly *punish* skill!? some of you must surely be screaming at your screen in nerdrage, coating your monitor with mouthbreathing spittle.

i'll explain it nice and simple for the unwashed masses that seem to frequent these forums.

Wow...

Way to set the thread up for an open-minded discussion.

"Here's my point. If you disagree you're an *****"

[Lukoi Banacek]

Managing your heat is an issue of self-restraint and patience.

Same with not feeling compelled to charge the light brigade into the caldera when there is cover along the three line ridge, the hillcocks lining the big pond etc.

Same with moving as a unit where possible, spotting and utilizing cover as much as possible to negate LRM advantage. These are all essentially skills of a tactically minded pilot. Caustic punishes a lack of skill, not skill.

Caustic is only an "open" map when you fight in the center, tactics be damned.

[TB Freelancer]

Neverfar, on 17 June 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

So, another devotee of the Church of Skill™ is insulting most of the playerbase in the OP of this thread.

And these people want and demand a segregated Elo-based subforum. What a bunch of special snowflakes.

Common man, the OP is like a 400lb man wearing an "I beat anorexia." T-Shirt. He's a joke.

Seeing the source for what it is I had a good laugh.....

[Xie Belvoule]

Malora Sidewinder, on 14 June 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

as it stands, the map caustic is good for a few things, and bad for many many more.

It rewards LRM abuse. this isn't as problematic as it once was (closed beta i'm looking at you) but it's still taking a no-skill element of the game and giving it serious perks... more than it SHOULD have, if you ask me.
now this is just a minor flaw, and one could even call it... you guessed it! a feature.
sometimes you NEED lrms to be better than normal.

but the way caustic is set up, it seems to me that it punishes skill. How, malora sidewinder, could a map possibly *punish* skill!? some of you must surely be screaming at your screen in nerdrage, coating your monitor with mouthbreathing spittle.

i'll explain it nice and simple for the unwashed masses that seem to frequent these forums.

Caustic has two low grounded bases, with a high middle ground.
In tactics, taking the high ground with cover is normally a no-brainer. however, due to the heat inside the high ground, taking the high ground is essentially suicide. you can charge *through* the high ground and over the caldera to the other team, and this may work, but...

if the enemy is good, they'll sit back and pick targets and rip your charge to pieces. it doesn't matter if you outweigh them several full tons, the caldera is set up so that one or two of your guys will be visible at a time, meaning the enemy team has no CHOICE but to focus fire them.
think about that. it TAKES AWAY the ability of the average pug to be as terrible as he can possibly be.

if the team is terrible, they'll be mounting a charge *around* the side of the caldera, and you'll end up being able to take their base.

if the team is average, some take your base, leaving you to duel with them over theirs and most likely get capped yourselves.

so... what's the best solution?

camp.
charging for either side is suicidal. in order to mount an offensive you must lose cover and subject yourself to enemy sniper fire *with them invulnerable to being shot back at* or take lrms like it's your job.

it's harder to mount an offensive movement, and most effective if you split your group and use unit cohesion to attack two separate sides that come together to pincer the enemy, divide them, or flank them.

you can't do that on caustic, because if you do, you get *****. hard. horribly.

caustic, the way it's set up, promotes camping. just like how wolves are more intelligent than deer because it's harder to hunt than it is to evade, caustic rewards lower skilled players by letting them dig in and punishing players who try to use skill to overcome their opponents.

i'm not saying it's impossible. far from it, and most of the time a coordinated unit will slaughter pugs regardless of the map.
but in competitive play, caustic often degenerates into a WHO CAN SIT HERE FOR LONGER, HMM!? match that nobody enjoys.

anyone have an alternative view to submit? or do we all agree that caustic blows?

note: I know alpine is worse. but that map has been bashed to death and i'm sure the devs know that nobody likes it.

I couldn't disagree more Malora, it doesn't punish skill, it punishes a lack of critical or creative thinking. It's a good map, in fact its my best map actually. You simply have a shallow mind, tactically speaking.

[InRev]

Xie Belvoule, on 17 June 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

I couldn't disagree more Malora, it doesn't punish skill, it punishes a lack of critical or creative thinking. It's a good map, in fact its my best map actually. You simply have a shallow mind, tactically speaking.

Basically, this. Taking a hill is not, and should not, be an "I win" scenario. A lot of the times, good map design makes it so that common tactical tropes (such as "take the hill!" or "flank them!") are actually death-traps, forcing people to be more creative. Caustic has an entire line (forest side) protected by steep hills that permit a flanking action, but this too can be a disaster if people just lemming rush it without scouting the flank on the opposite side of the volcano (cap switch, anyone?). If you can pull it off, however, it can pay dividends, nailing the bad guys in the open while you have perfect cover to which you can return.

Basically, if you use lazy, cookie-cutter tactics, Caustic punishes you, and this is good. This forces players to think a little bit beyond their "Tactics 101" manual, especially about the unique features of the map itself.

[Khan Reaper]

3 Line.

[Wildstreak]

Every map has its good and bad points.

If the OP was as smart as he claims, he would also have covered what Mechs benefit and what ones suffer per map, at least for Caustic.

When I ran Awesome a lot, my worst map was River City Night even when the new ones came out.
Running Hunchback a lot lately, Caustic is the worst (not counting Canyon for either, not played it enough).

Hunchbacks tend to thrive in Urban environments more so even the hated RCN is better for it than Caustic while the unliked Awesome seems to do better on Caustic with its long range weapons.

This on top of Caustic hardly coming up in rotation much.

[oldradagast]

So... the map requires you to do more than perform the most basic task in a game like this - taking the high ground - and that is seen as *punishing* skill? Because skill is apparently "doing the obvious thing quickly."

Next up, why armor punishes skill because it prevents you from one-shotting everyone...

Edited by oldradagast, 17 June 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[Xie Belvoule]

Seriously Malora, what is this little rant of your's all about?
You still mad about that time I headshot your Atlas in the crater on Caustic?

Edited by Xie Belvoule, 17 June 2013 - 06:26 PM.