51 replies to this topic

[TB Azrael]

Malora Sidewinder, on 14 June 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

....
The stalker rewards LRM abuse....

Fixed that part for you.

[SgtMaster]

Malora Sidewinder, on 14 June 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

i'm not saying it's impossible. far from it, and most of the time a coordinated unit will slaughter pugs regardless of the map.
but in competitive play, caustic often degenerates into a WHO CAN SIT HERE FOR LONGER, HMM!? match that nobody enjoys.

anyone have an alternative view to submit? or do we all agree that caustic blows?

note: I know alpine is worse. but that map has been bashed to death and i'm sure the devs know that nobody likes it.

Well, you entitle to your opinion. likes or dislikes of map(s), but the insults to the community were not called for.

As to "waiting it out", its all about discipline, which is key essentials to running any successful team...!
And i enjoy when the match ends in a DRAW with no kills/ deaths... (rarely seen).

[Malora Sidewinder]

Xie Belvoule, on 17 June 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

You still mad about that time I headshot your Atlas in the crater on Caustic?

I'm sorry, this happened?
I don't recall; my life has so many more important things going on that something so trivial would easily escape my notice.
in fact, i'm curious as to why something so small would stick out in your memory.

Overall, the reason that I feel caustic is terrible is because it encourages both camping *and* the use of minimal skill-capped weapons. If a team wants to push, even if the push is well organized, they skill gap required to take an entrenched position from the enemy on this map is usually far too much to be realistic. If a team pushes, they usually lose, regardless of how smart the push is overall.
Camping is king on caustic, and i don't like that.

I'd like to mention that since I play at a competitive level, the distinction must be made. in a pug, you can basically do whatever you'd like on caustic with your team.

in an 8 man environment, doing anything *but* holding near base is tantamount to suicide.

Merchant, on 17 June 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

If the OP was as smart as he claims, he would also have covered what Mechs benefit and what ones suffer per map, at least for Caustic.

wait, WHAT? how is that relevant at all... every map has mechs that are good and bad on it, why would i waste time talking about mech tactics when i'm calling the *maps* integrity into question?

Edited by Malora Sidewinder, 17 June 2013 - 11:37 PM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

Eldagore, on 14 June 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

I find the exact opposite. Smart flanking and caution and good play is rewarded in the extreme in Caustic. Foolish play means you die a horrid death.

dont go to the mountain. Go to the side. scout the enemy. Dont camp once you find out where they are. Flank. Dont get them between you and base, unless they are going for your base. Then emerge from the side and rear and blow half of them away before they know whats going on.
Going around the caldera lets them cap? Fine, let them go, and keep right on going around and blast them in the backs. Their Fatlas will be first to die, as their over eager cap happy lights run way ahead to get a start, and that dragon or cicada or speedy cent went along hoping to find an easy AFk to blast.

If you derp around and play peek a boo, or stand on top of a hill to line up you "skill" PPC boat shots, then you die, and you earn a ltpn00b.

I actually rate Caustic as one of the top tactical maps to play on. Field awareness is paramount to victory there.

this plus quite a few other possible tactics... just like everyone is b1tching about canyon... the problem is not the map, but the understanding of the players. of many many many tactical options the "average Puggy" takes the cheapest and takes the 50/50 chance of "stomp or get stomped"...

same goes for toumaline btw... the only real issue on that map is the too short capture time, and thus inability to prevent the enemy from capping unless your team decides to stay back and defend in the first place...but show me the pug team that doesn´t cross the "boarder line" (if scouts actually would be scouting you could indeed prevent the enemy from getting your base, but that would afford more communication and coordination and most of all INFORMATION than possible in 99% of all random matches...most light mechs sadly just run across the map, ignore the enemy movement and start capping immediately... that leads to the rest of your team not knowing where to look for the enemy and just walking straight to the "usual playground"... only 2 enemies going another way will likely end up in a "lose by cap")

blablabla, i´ll quit with this before i start writing a tactical handbook lol

but one thing towards the "camping is unevitable" position ... even -and especially- in 8 man drops, the key to victory is neither camping nor pushing..it´s slow and steady advance... if you camp, you might get rushed, if you push, you might get into an ambush... as the quote above me says: Information, overview, awareness and the right coordination and fast decissions win caustic valley..

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 18 June 2013 - 12:27 AM.

[B0oN]

Malora Sidewinder, on 17 June 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Spoiler

I'm sorry, this happened?
I don't recall; my life has so many more important things going on that something so trivial would easily escape my notice.
in fact, i'm curious as to why something so small would stick out in your memory.

Overall, the reason that I feel caustic is terrible is because it encourages both camping *and* the use of minimal skill-capped weapons. If a team wants to push, even if the push is well organized, they skill gap required to take an entrenched position from the enemy on this map is usually far too much to be realistic. If a team pushes, they usually lose, regardless of how smart the push is overall.
Camping is king on caustic, and i don't like that.

I'd like to mention that since I play at a competitive level, the distinction must be made. in a pug, you can basically do whatever you'd like on caustic with your team.

in an 8 man environment, doing anything *but* holding near base is tantamount to suicide.

Spoiler

wait, WHAT? how is that relevant at all... every map has mechs that are good and bad on it, why would i waste time talking about mech tactics when i'm calling the *maps* integrity into question?

Really, Sir ?
You dare playing "competetive" with that mindset on a map that forces mechwarriors brutally active to be creative ?
Best of luck then and have a nice death.

[Roughneck45]

Sounds like someone doesn't have the skill to execute other viable tactics.

[Malora Sidewinder]

Adrienne Vorton, on 18 June 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

same goes for toumaline btw...

The problem with tourmaline is that it's TOO DAMN BIG for 8v8, and was implemented months before 12v12 was even on the horizon... and then they proceeded to make it almost 40% of map rotation.

[ninjitsu]

l2p

[Petroshka]

Malora Sidewinder, on 17 June 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

I'd like to mention that since I play at a competitive level, the distinction must be made. in a pug, you can basically do whatever you'd like on caustic with your team.

Oh gosh. this is not going well. Not well at all.

[Deathlike]

To OP:

Caustic doesn't punish skill. It punishes incompetence. If you don't understand how to play the map most effectively, you are effectively punishing yourself.

There is more to the map than the heatblob in the middle.

[Jam the Bam]

I love caustic, it's one of the few that punishes teams that split and rambo off, it makes you play as a proper team, and there are lots of ways of getting round a camping team if you have some patience, a quality which appears to be rare in this game.

[Jam the Bam]

Malora Sidewinder, on 17 June 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

I don't recall; my life has so many more important things going on that something so trivial would easily escape my notice.

I'd like to mention that since I play at a competitive level, the distinction must be made.

Uh oh, the gloves are off. He's obviously far too skilful and busy to care what us lowly pugs think.

[Alistair Winter]

Caustic doesn't punish skill, it punishes variety and creativity. It's like playing Assault on Alpine. If you're smart, you have one or two different viable tactics. If you're dumb, you'll try something new. I mean, the whole map has maybe 3 significant features, the rest of which are mostly eye candy. It's as intellectually stimulating as playing a game of 1 on 1 paintball in a room empty except for a refrigerator in the center.

It's like this video, at 04:48. A joke.

I have a 1.34 win statistic on Caustic. Come at me, bro.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 19 June 2013 - 06:01 AM.

[Jam the Bam]

Alistair Winter, on 19 June 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

I have a 1.34 win statistic on Caustic. Come at me, bro.

2.36 Here so I'm not going to complain to hard about it,

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Malora Sidewinder, on 14 June 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

as it stands, the map caustic is good for a few things, and bad for many many more.

It rewards LRM abuse. this isn't as problematic as it once was (closed beta i'm looking at you) but it's still taking a no-skill element of the game and giving it serious perks... more than it SHOULD have, if you ask me.
now this is just a minor flaw, and one could even call it... you guessed it! a feature.
sometimes you NEED lrms to be better than normal.

but the way caustic is set up, it seems to me that it punishes skill. How, malora sidewinder, could a map possibly *punish* skill!? some of you must surely be screaming at your screen in nerdrage, coating your monitor with mouthbreathing spittle.

i'll explain it nice and simple for the unwashed masses that seem to frequent these forums.

Caustic has two low grounded bases, with a high middle ground.
In tactics, taking the high ground with cover is normally a no-brainer. however, due to the heat inside the high ground, taking the high ground is essentially suicide. you can charge *through* the high ground and over the caldera to the other team, and this may work, but...

if the enemy is good, they'll sit back and pick targets and rip your charge to pieces. it doesn't matter if you outweigh them several full tons, the caldera is set up so that one or two of your guys will be visible at a time, meaning the enemy team has no CHOICE but to focus fire them.
think about that. it TAKES AWAY the ability of the average pug to be as terrible as he can possibly be.

if the team is terrible, they'll be mounting a charge *around* the side of the caldera, and you'll end up being able to take their base.

if the team is average, some take your base, leaving you to duel with them over theirs and most likely get capped yourselves.

so... what's the best solution?

camp.
charging for either side is suicidal. in order to mount an offensive you must lose cover and subject yourself to enemy sniper fire *with them invulnerable to being shot back at* or take lrms like it's your job.

it's harder to mount an offensive movement, and most effective if you split your group and use unit cohesion to attack two separate sides that come together to pincer the enemy, divide them, or flank them.

you can't do that on caustic, because if you do, you get *****. hard. horribly.

caustic, the way it's set up, promotes camping. just like how wolves are more intelligent than deer because it's harder to hunt than it is to evade, caustic rewards lower skilled players by letting them dig in and punishing players who try to use skill to overcome their opponents.

i'm not saying it's impossible. far from it, and most of the time a coordinated unit will slaughter pugs regardless of the map.
but in competitive play, caustic often degenerates into a WHO CAN SIT HERE FOR LONGER, HMM!? match that nobody enjoys.

anyone have an alternative view to submit? or do we all agree that caustic blows?

note: I know alpine is worse. but that map has been bashed to death and i'm sure the devs know that nobody likes it.

Solution: ignore the caldera and play in all those other strategic spots the map has. I mean...if everyone is just going to straight line every ******* map, why do we even neep maps? Why do we need terrain?

[Gaan Cathal]

So to summarise the OP:

1: Caustic is bad because it rewards low-skill LRM use.
2: Caustic is bad because it doesn't reward low-skill PPC use.

Mk.

[Sahoj]

I have a healthy respect for Caustic and Tourmaline. I'm generally happiest in the urban maps where I can go-to-absolute-town in the ole HBK.

Caustic and Tourmaline though - didn't bring UAV? Threw out the LRMS your mech came stock with? Didn't bring an AMS? Only have an energy weapon payload? Uh oh.

Both of these maps do an admirable job of rewarding players for fielding a mech who is more capable than a nasty alpha-strike.

I've had some of my most memorable matches in Caustic.

Edited by Sahoj, 22 June 2013 - 05:13 PM.

[General Taskeen]

The color palletes still look strange to me on all the maps along with the fuzzy draw distances.

Here are colors on maps from LL:












All very clear, sharp, and less of a strain on my eyes.

[Castigatus]

+1 to 'OP is talking out of his arse', which must be difficult considering he acts like he has his head rammed up there too.

I would actually say that caustic is one of the most skillful maps in terms of how many options it gives you to deal with the different areas.

[Mercules]

Malora Sidewinder, on 17 June 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

I'd like to mention that since I play at a competitive level, the distinction must be made. in a pug, you can basically do whatever you'd like on caustic with your team.

Age: 21 years old
Birthday: April 21, 1992
Gender: Male
Location: New Jersey
Interests: competitive mma fighter, terrible surfer, driving fast cars, writing, sci-fi/fantasy, published author.


http://vampirefreaks.com/Rivaltuna

Ultra wanna-be "alpha dog". You go girl!

If you are 8 manning you "might" be playing competitively but the majority of those players will come on the forums and admit there isn't much they can do competitively right now in MWO.

Caustic is a map that forces you to switch up tactics a bit. High ground Is normally preferable, but in this case it limits how frequently you can fire. You can rush up over and through or around, or use the cover from various locations but they ALL have drawbacks in addition to their advantages.

If you check the heat maps for Caustic they don't change a whole lot, people often hug the ridge of the caldera but a good number go down the 2 line(what was the 3 line) or through the hills on the far East. This is one of those maps where the enemy can really be coming from any of a half dozen routes and I think it works very well for that. It isn't just "Run to point A or B, post, and fire upon any approaching enemy."