659 replies to this topic

[Sug]

hammerreborn, on 17 June 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

If they can increase the playerbase by enough it'll offset the cost of the split.

I agree with that. Though i bet they could increase the playerbase even more by adding in an actual game...

[InRev]

I'm still unsure why it has become gospel that adding 3PV will grow the playerbase. I mean, at this point, I don't really care anymore, but the absolute certainty with which people (players for, players against, and even the devs, for that matter) assert 3PV's community-growing potential bemuses me.

To me it's a gamble (and one on which PGI appears to be banking quite a bit), not a fact, unless someone can provide quotations from players saying "THAT MWO GAME LOOKS GOOD BUT **** 1PV!!!"

Maybe I am just being pedantic.

Sug, on 17 June 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

I agree with that. Though i bet they could increase the playerbase even more by adding in an actual game...

This on the other hand appears much more concrete, considering the rather public way in which entire units have basically quit playing, due to boredom.

[BlackBeltJones]

I know 'normal' and 'hardcore' are words used to promote the ultimate vision of the game but I am increasingly rubbed wrong by the use of 'normal'. Do they consider the last 12 months of gameplay not normal? Are the fans that have supported the game thus far, Founders and MC purchasers not normal? I realize it is just words but what is the intended meaning of normal in the future if it was the current 'normal' supporters that got them this far? I am not suggesting that they utilize a different word - I think their word choice reflects meaning and based on previous experience I would guess that meaning is "thanks for the money and all but we think these other people over here, who have no track record of spending money will be the demographic we are after now".
Tin Foil hat time now: aggressive move to promote 3PV as the new normal, XBOX One hitting the market, Server authoritative format which seems to coincide with the XBOX One game management philosophy (though I am not fully versed on current XBOX details), and the fact MS owns XBOX and Battletech. Maybe, just maybe this is a measure to prep for a console release of MWO.
Tin Foil hat can now be used to wrap leftovers.

[hammerreborn]

InRev, on 17 June 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

I'm still unsure why it has become gospel that adding 3PV will grow the playerbase. I mean, at this point, I don't really care anymore, but the absolute certainty with which people (players for, players against, and even the devs, for that matter) assert 3PV's community-growing potential bemuses me.

To me it's a gamble (and one on which PGI appears to be banking quite a bit), not a fact, unless someone can provide quotations from players saying "THAT MWO GAME LOOKS GOOD BUT **** 1PV!!!"

Maybe I am just being pedantic.


This on the other hand appears much more concrete, considering the rather public way in which entire units have basically quit playing, due to boredom.

Who knows. Hence it being a gamble. Going on steam is probably another gamble that they may or make not take in the future, since they have hinted discussing it already (I doubt they will do this until after CW at the earliest).

But you're right, CW needed to be here 3 months ago.

BlackBeltJones, on 17 June 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

I know 'normal' and 'hardcore' are words used to promote the ultimate vision of the game but I am increasingly rubbed wrong by the use of 'normal'. Do they consider the last 12 months of gameplay not normal? Are the fans that have supported the game thus far, Founders and MC purchasers not normal? I realize it is just words but what is the intended meaning of normal in the future if it was the current 'normal' supporters that got them this far? I am not suggesting that they utilize a different word - I think their word choice reflects meaning and based on previous experience I would guess that meaning is "thanks for the money and all but we think these other people over here, who have no track record of spending money will be the demographic we are after now".
Tin Foil hat time now: aggressive move to promote 3PV as the new normal, XBOX One hitting the market, Server authoritative format which seems to coincide with the XBOX One game management philosophy (though I am not fully versed on current XBOX details), and the fact MS owns XBOX and Battletech. Maybe, just maybe this is a measure to prep for a console release of MWO.
Tin Foil hat can now be used to wrap leftovers.

You'll get over it.

Edited by hammerreborn, 17 June 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[Tekadept]

The thing I find most sad of all, A long time ago in a galaxy far away I used to be EXCITED when the new ask the Devs post would come out, I would get up early saturday morning to have a look and see what was happening, Also I would get excited whenever a command chair post would be put up.

Now it has come to the point I no longer care, I do eventually read the ATD responses, but it may be a few days later, same goes for command chair posts.

All the up and coming games from kickstarter and crowd funding, the amount of information coming from them is astounding AND exciting, especially when it compares to MWO lackluster effort. These games have Video Dev Diaries, News Updates and more which is exciting (yes some of these companies are bigger, but some are the same if smaller then PGI). In this modern age where most companies will do Video Dev Diaries, I wonder why PGI still hasn't. Just the simple notion of PGI spending an hour or 2 doing a Video Diary of the Ask the devs questions would reinspire me to actually care about them, even if the answers are still the same.

[BlackBeltJones]

hammerreborn, on 17 June 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Who knows. Hence it being a gamble. Going on steam is probably another gamble that they may or make not take in the future, since they have hinted discussing it already (I doubt they will do this until after CW at the earliest).

But you're right, CW needed to be here 3 months ago.



You'll get over it.

Yeah come November 2014 this will all be long forgotten.

[InRev]

hammerreborn, on 17 June 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Who knows. Hence it being a gamble. Going on steam is probably another gamble that they may or make not take in the future, since they have hinted discussing it already (I doubt they will do this until after CW at the earliest).

But you're right, CW needed to be here 3 months ago.

You know, I kinda like the Steam idea. A lot, in fact. I know a lot of people who had absolutely no idea that this game even existed, but obscure indie games on Steam are fresh in their minds. Putting it on Steam, especially on the front page for a week, would definitely attract a lot of people.

I know that they would be the kind of gamers that many people in the community would not want touching MWO, but at this point, PGI is absolutely (and rightfully) adamant about expanding into previously untouched markets. Doing so via Steam would be a great way achieve this without actually touching gameplay elements.

[InRev]

Tekadept, on 17 June 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Just the simple notion of PGI spending an hour or 2 doing a Video Diary of the Ask the devs questions would reinspire me to actually care about them, even if the answers are still the same.

It's especially bizarre considering how Garth does regular Twitch.tv streams with NGNG and the dev team also have Friday night drops on Twitch. They have the time. They're just . . . well . . . not to use a meme, but they're just doing it wrong. This, coupled with the fact that Reddit, twitter, Facebook, etc. get more attention than their own damn website makes me very confused regarding their marketing and communication choices.

Edit note: DAMMIT DOUBLE POST

Edited by InRev, 17 June 2013 - 05:59 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Tekadept, on 17 June 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

The thing I find most sad of all, A long time ago in a galaxy far away I used to be EXCITED when the new ask the Devs post would come out, I would get up early saturday morning to have a look and see what was happening, Also I would get excited whenever a command chair post would be put up.

Now it has come to the point I no longer care, I do eventually read the ATD responses, but it may be a few days later, same goes for command chair posts.

All the up and coming games from kickstarter and crowd funding, the amount of information coming from them is astounding AND exciting, especially when it compares to MWO lackluster effort. These games have Video Dev Diaries, News Updates and more which is exciting (yes some of these companies are bigger, but some are the same if smaller then PGI). In this modern age where most companies will do Video Dev Diaries, I wonder why PGI still hasn't. Just the simple notion of PGI spending an hour or 2 doing a Video Diary of the Ask the devs questions would reinspire me to actually care about them, even if the answers are still the same.

I don't know if they're still done, but the NGNG podcasts have been going on forever and they always have at least one developer on there usually

[hammerreborn]

InRev, on 17 June 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

It's especially bizarre considering how Garth does regular Twitch.tv streams with NGNG and the dev team also have Friday night drops on Twitch. They have the time. They're just . . . well . . . not to use a meme, but they're just doing it wrong. This, coupled with the fact that Reddit, twitter, Facebook, etc. get more attention than their own damn website makes me very confused regarding their marketing and communication choices.

Edit note: DAMMIT DOUBLE POST

To be fair, people aren't calling them lying ******** on twitter when trying to get a response. The tone of the comments is far different there

[carl kerensky]

FRYBOTH: The physical damage on Mechs looks really great. Are there any plans to expand upon this further? Maybe an additional layer of exposed internals underneath the brown/black pock marks? Also, is there ever going to be a visual representation of a destroyed side torso? When I Survive a round with only my center and another torso left, or just as a zombie (only CT), I wanna look like I just went through hell

A: We actually dialed it back a bunch. We’re fighting a regular balance between high spec and min spec. Right now the game still needs improvement to run on lower end machines, which still dominate the market.




PGI will you please dial it back up? I purchased a founders package based on gameplay AND the graphics. Ok your trying to get better min specs. Tell me why I can't have the options on my own machine?

Edited by carl kerensky, 17 June 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[BlackBeltJones]

hammerreborn, on 17 June 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

I don't know. Hero mechs are the cash cow most likely. I think that 3rd person only players will focus on paints (which are far more money than cockpit items) and the first person will focus on the cockpit. You might split the player base, but it's a gamble I'm willing to see through. If they can increase the playerbase by enough it'll offset the cost of the split.

Only time will tell

In all fairness, but completely my own perspective, it seems that MC is the cash cow. One doesn't buy Hero Mechs or paint or cockpit items but rather they buy MC. Can you sell more paint with 3PV? probably, more MC. Can you sell more cockpit items with 1PV? probably, more MC. Does all this make good business sense? You bet it does. They likely had 3PV as a MC generating contingency plan from the get go and I am certain that had PGI originally delivered us a 3PV game they would likely be implementing a 1PV mode at this very moment. All this is fine and probably good for business but it has burst the bubble for many die-hard BT/MW fans. I believe there was a sense of hope that PGI would set all business matters aside and rest in the hands of the righteous fans and make a pure, perfect Mechwarrior game - of course these hopes are based on a ridiculous sense of personal entitlement which has no validity. But now the business of Mechwarrior seems to be dashing the hopes of the OG crowd and the promise of that perfect real-time BattleTech game seems, well, redacted.

Edited by BlackBeltJones, 17 June 2013 - 06:44 PM.

[carl kerensky]

shellashock, on 17 June 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

How would this help anything? This game is already suffering from low population numbers. Limiting it to only the people with the most powerful hardware possible will definitely lower the population and likely discourage people from trying out the game. Sure the game will look great, but who cares if most people can't play it faster then 5-10 fps?


Right now, I can only play at 10-15 fps max and I am happy with it, but most people I know would never stand for it longer then a day or two. Yes i know my computer stinks, but this is my current computer until i upgrade next month. Most free to play games are usually dominated by the lower end of the spectrum. User wise and computer wise I mean. Most people here right now are likely the hardcore mech warrior players who can afford to buy the best of the best gaming computers and can deal with an uptick in graphics.


However, PGI is now gunning for the more casual audiences to bring in more players and more money. These casuals are not likely to have hyper powerful computers because they are just that: casuals. They just want a game to play with a decent computer. If the graphics are given a boost, the casuals would likely complain that they cannot play this game at a decent speed and might leave.

If this game is composed of only the hardcore mech warrior players, then this game is near guaranteed to fail. I am not saying that hardcore players are bad for the game, but there is simply not enough mech warrior hard core players around to sustain the player base and to keep PGI flush with cash for development. And even if there are enough, the numbers of these players dwindles every day because of the mistakes PGI makes. The hardcore players have fond memories of mech warrior, and the majority of them probably want MW:O to be exactly as they remember their original experiences to be. IE, they want it their way or the highway (for them). You see it everyday. "Fix this or I'm leaving!", "Ditch 3PV or you will never see another penny from me again PGI!", etc. This is the hardcore player group. This is a tough crowd to please and to be honest, PGI is not impressing them one bit.

The casual players on the other hand will probably be more lenient to changes or decisions PGI makes and will still continue to supply PGI with cash for development. What we need here is a mix of hardcore players that are patient enough to wait for PGI to make the right moves and give them a great mech warrior game and are able to educate the casual crowd on how mech warrior works, and also a large amount of casuals coming in to supply PGI with cash, good reviews, and more beta testers. Right now, PGI sees this coming only through the implementation of a great 3PV and having this game work great on your average computer.

I can't give you the exact quote right now, but someone had said somewhere that PGI was gunning for the World Of Tanks crowd. This is probably the group that PGI is trying to attract. if you have seen how well optimized World of Tanks is for performance, then you would want your performance standards to be around that point too.

Edited for formatting that i was too lazy to bother with before.

The CASUALS? Casuals? Ugggg You create first and foremost for the hardcore. The players that will build the base of this game. Its the foundation. Flip flopping casuals. Basing the decisions upon them will tank this game to mediocrity. Dialing back the graphics and creating an arcade game to cater to the casual is ridiculous. You want to stand out? You build the game you love PGI and refine till you got the recipe right. You PGI guys are hardcore!! Trust in that and it will deliver. Look at WOT. Hardcore tankers created that. It has maintained that attitude throughout the patches. Graphics and physics and sounds continually upgraded. MWO can be great.It has the potential. I saw it when I saw the very first GDC Video. Now its being buried with all its smoke and mirrors.

[Tekadept]

hammerreborn, on 17 June 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

I don't know if they're still done, but the NGNG podcasts have been going on forever and they always have at least one developer on there usually

True, but that is still different to a decent structured video dev diary, more of an informal chat, I stopped listening to NGNG personally a while ago, however it is better then nothing. But compared to what other developers are doing these days from the smallest of indie to "some" of the bigger ones it seems like they are unwilling to put themselves out there.

[InRev]

hammerreborn, on 17 June 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

To be fair, people aren't calling them lying ******** on twitter when trying to get a response. The tone of the comments is far different there

True true, but I have noticed people starting to call PGI out on Twitter very recently, which could cause this strategy to backfire.

Also, I'm not sure if a company should be avoiding or dodging criticism by moving to sterile, controlled channels, but rather they should be addressing it, but that's just me. I tend to expect more from companies, the government, organizations, etc. Call me a rabble-rouser

Edited by InRev, 17 June 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[Victor Morson]

InRev, on 17 June 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

I know that they would be the kind of gamers that many people in the community would not want touching MWO, but at this point, PGI is absolutely (and rightfully) adamant about expanding into previously untouched markets. Doing so via Steam would be a great way achieve this without actually touching gameplay elements.

I really really want people, of all kinds of mindsets, joining MW:O. I just want a smart, detailed game with depth when they get here so they might see what we like about it and stay. That is how a game survives.

I think if they are waiting go to on Steam until they debut CW, that is the smartest move PGI could make.

[Rebas Kradd]

carl kerensky, on 17 June 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

The CASUALS? Casuals? Ugggg You create first and foremost for the hardcore. The players that will build the base of this game. Its the foundation.

The hardcore, sim-purist sect of an already relatively small player base is not going to be enough to support any game.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 17 June 2013 - 06:56 PM.

[BlackBeltJones]

Rebas Kradd, on 17 June 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

The hardcore, sim-purist sect of an already relatively small player base is not going to be enough to support any game.

The accountant at Star-Citizen would like to discuss some things with you.
I do think it's interesting that MW seems to merge the sim and the COD crowd where something like SC probably has very little COD crowd interest. I think many people on the forum felt that the die-hard crowd would be sufficient to financially support MWO and maybe that could have worked if PGI had been more open about their realistic financial needs from the (smaller) community and the fans were more available with their wallets.

[InRev]

BlackBeltJones, on 17 June 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

I think many people on the forum felt that the die-hard crowd would be sufficient to financially support MWO and maybe that could have worked if PGI had been more open about their realistic financial needs from the (smaller) community and the fans were more available with their wallets.

This actually brings up an interesting question: what was PGI's goal with this game?

Were they trying to make a game with widespread, mainstream appeal in the first place? Were they targeting a niche audience but shifted gears after the massive Founders windfall, seeing more potential? Were they targeting a niche audience, but discovered that said audience couldn't actually fund their game, even after the massive Founders windfall?

I'm very curious now, even though it may seem a goofy question.

[Tekadept]

InRev, on 17 June 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

This actually brings up an interesting question: what was PGI's goal with this game?

Were they trying to make a game with widespread, mainstream appeal in the first place? Were they targeting a niche audience but shifted gears after the massive Founders windfall, seeing more potential? Were they targeting a niche audience, but discovered that said audience couldn't actually fund their game, even after the massive Founders windfall?

I'm very curious now, even though it may seem a goofy question.

Remember founders didn't actually "FUND" MWO directly