36 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Tahribator, on 16 June 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

I cannot believe the amount of people running their HM's with 1JJ. If you're using only 1JJ with the Heavy Metal, then you're missing half the effectiveness it offers. Jumpjets are not only a mean to get to points you cannot get by walking or help you turn. It's an asset for brawls; it gets you out of bad situations, it helps you spread damage, it messes up enemies' aim and it confuses other assaults(where did he go?). So the more you have and the more time you spend it air, the more you frustrate the enemy.

I mastered all the Highlanders before buying Heavy Metal and I had some support Highlanders which I only operated with 1JJ, and that's fine. But to make the most out of the Heavy Metal, you have to use all the advantages it offers:

• Biggest engine HGN's can use
  
• 5 JJ's
  
• 3 energy hardpoints on arm(perfect for 3LL or 3MPL)

Yesterday I 1v1'd with another Heavy Metal who was using exactly the same build (1 Gauss + 3LL) and I came out on top because while he was sitting down, waiting for me to come down or wondering where the heck did I go, I was in the air working on his CT. I was barely scratched when he was down. When I called on him why he didn't use jumpjets, he told me he had one but didn't bother using it . . . If you're not going to use the jumpjets, do yourself a favour and save yourself the 33$.

Jackpoint, on 16 June 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

One Jump jet gets you 6 meters, plenty enough bounce for brawling avoidance-navigating terrain.

This about sums it up.

I got the HM when it came out, and have logged 18 and a half hours in it, as well as a good chunk in my 733C and P. I started out maxing the Jump Jets, but even in the height of poptarting, 5 was far more than was necessary. And 5 jump jets comes at a very substantial investment in weight! Just kept cutting it back, ran with 3 till the end of the Poptarting Days, at which point even then it was unnecessary.

I've been running my HM with a Gauss/3LL/2SRM4 single jet setup for some time now, and even brawling I have no trouble whatsoever using that single JJ to leap over enemy Atlases - even if you don't technically clear them, collision is so sketch you jump through them anyways. And with one, I can still clear any obstacles, climb any ledges/cliffs, etc, allowing me to gain a height advantage negating other assault's torso weapons (I'll happily trade use of my SRM4's for an Atlas' AC20 and 3xSRM6's!)

I'm certainly a strong advocate of JJ's, and I really want more to be better. I'd love a world where 5 JJ's on the HM gains me a significant tactical advantage, but that's just not how things are. Prolonged jumping in combat isn't advantageous, you want to get wherever you need to go with as minimal a jump as possible. Any mobility gain is definitely good, but more just extends the time you can jump for, not how fast you jump. There's so few places that one JJ can't get you that more jets just doesn't pay off well.

Now, if 5 JJ's would rocket you upwards fast? I'd be ALL over those apples.

People say it messes with other people's aim, but that's certainly not my experience. I've found, whenever a target jumps, the whole time he's in the air I have guaranteed hits: His flight path is entirely predictable. Even with mechs like spiders, when they are on the ground they can dart around erratically, but the moment they jump, they die. I'm not bragging, I'm not amazingly good, but seriously it's far easier to hit a jumping target than a running one.

[Wintersdark]

oldradagast, on 16 June 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

I'm going to have to disagree with the suggestion that "one jump jet is good enough." That is true only if you are willing to give up the ability to use jumpjets in a brawl to spread damage across your mech. I've beaten too many Highlanders in brawls over the weeks who had only 1 jump jet, and it was sad watching them gain a little altitude, take all the hits in their torso, fall to the ground, and then repeat the process.

If you want to be able to clear other mechs by jumping and really take advantage of the damage spreading and mobility of jump jets in brawl, you need at least 2 of them. More is optional, but one is truly not enough, at least not on a Highlander.,

Do your opponents never just aim up? Highlanders lift slowly, and there's these bright blue indicator lights (jets) that show you're jumping. Highlanders lift very slowly, so it's trivial to just aim up while firing and core them as the move slowly and predictably upwards.

I certainly agree jump jets are valuable in a brawl for leaping over mechs and to open up your vectors for attack and escape, but I've never seen anyone(in any mech) successfully avoid my fire by jumping. Sure, with multiple jets you can get high enough to avoid torso weapons, but you're not in the air long no matter what.

I suppose if your opponents use arm lock, negating their ability to aim up well, that could make more jump jets more useful, but... eh.

[Amsro]

The more time you spend in the air the more time enemy mechs have to line up a good shot.

1 JJ is all thats needed on Assault class mechs. The reverse is true as you get to smaller mechs.

STD 330 engine is much more critical on the Heavy Metal then 5 JJ.

Edit ; I guess in the end it all personal preference, I just can't justify 10 tonnes of sub par JJ.

Edited by Amsro, 16 June 2013 - 06:53 AM.

[Solomon Ward]

I used to run 5 JJ but after the recent changes i downgraded to just one

I can not justify more than that anymore.
.

[Sam Slade]

Viktor Drake, on 15 June 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

Personally I still have them equiped because even with the limited situational use, they definately make it easier to navigate the battlefield and sometimes allow me to really get the drop on enemy mechs and approach from angles they aren't expecting.

This is wgy I take 4 Jets on my 733C... it is worth it

[JackPoint]

Definitely a player option to equip more jjs if you desire but I have seen no benefit to having 1 or 5, as stated above HGn's lift very slowly so dodging or confusing your enemy is a moot point and only viable in light mechs.

With all HGNs elited and over 3million mech xp collected this is my personal choice of which I am more than happy with, what suits one badly fits another.

[Tremendous Upside]

The bottom line is that the number of jets (if any) that you'll need comes down to your playstyle and what you're comfortable with. I personally see zero value carrying more than 1 on a highlander. I have every variant and all of them are "heavy alpha" builds. I'll typically drop other assaults in 3-4 clean volleys inside of 300m. All of them are also designed to as "walk-down" mechs -- able to put fire on targets across a wide band of distances... so for me? Having more than one jet for brawling serves no purpose. It's a situation I'm almost never in. That said, having none? I do think you hurt yourself badly with that approach. The amount of utility you get from that first jump jet (as Wintersdark said) is outstanding.

Consider this situation. You're playing on Tourmaline (which is essentially a "trench warfare" scenario), and you have both teams locked down trading shots at the stargate. Never happens right? Well if you're pressing across the Theta gulley and want to hit the bad guys on the other side, you have two options. Left and right. Carry just one jump jet, and you'll have a third -- straight over the ridgeline. It's usually the "safest" place to attack - because the 4-6PPC stalker guys? They're covering the flanks waiting for you to peek around the corners. Jump right up the middle and you'll usually get a clean alpha and can drop back down before eating a ton of lead. Same goes for Frozen City, River City - every map really. Jump jets allow you to get "angles" for shots that you can't get without them. It gives you the "initiative" in a fight. Tactically it's an invaluable tool to have.

[oldradagast]

Wintersdark, on 16 June 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

Do your opponents never just aim up? Highlanders lift slowly, and there's these bright blue indicator lights (jets) that show you're jumping. Highlanders lift very slowly, so it's trivial to just aim up while firing and core them as the move slowly and predictably upwards.

I certainly agree jump jets are valuable in a brawl for leaping over mechs and to open up your vectors for attack and escape, but I've never seen anyone(in any mech) successfully avoid my fire by jumping. Sure, with multiple jets you can get high enough to avoid torso weapons, but you're not in the air long no matter what.

I suppose if your opponents use arm lock, negating their ability to aim up well, that could make more jump jets more useful, but... eh.

I can't speak for what my opponents are doing, but all I know is that proper use of 2+ jump jets on my Highlander in a brawl usually results in me having an edge with damage spread all over my mech, legs included. Maybe they are horrible shots or have arm-lock turned on - I don't know - but it works for me. Similarly, when going up against foes with 1 jump jet on their Highlander (basing this number off the tiny jump height achieved), I find them easy targets and that the use of the lone jumpjet does very little to throw off my aim.

Since I don't think I'm a better player than the other people I'm up against in my games, I have to assume that the addition of the extra jump jet is what is making the difference.

Edited by oldradagast, 16 June 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Doesn't make a lot of sense, really, as you don't lift off faster with more jets - you move in the same direction at the same speed. If someone shoots your legs with two, there's no reason they wouldn't with one - one will get you high enough that anyone would still have to aim up to hit you at all anyways. Even one jet allows me top pop over atlases in my hm

With two, you just spend more time moving in a very predictable arc.

The only conclusions I can come to from your results are:

1) Confirmation bias - you think the second jet helps and as such remember those times more/assume the second jet helped when it likely didn't, and/or
2) You've experienced this against generally poorly skilled opponents.

Does anyone experienced have a hard time tracking a highlander jumping? Even in the height of my 5JJ HM poptarting days, long jumps just meant I got cored in the air. Leg hits were as rare as they are when I'm moving on the ground.

[Tremendous Upside]

Wintersdark, on 16 June 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Doesn't make a lot of sense, really, as you don't lift off faster with more jets - you move in the same direction at the same speed. If someone shoots your legs with two, there's no reason they wouldn't with one - one will get you high enough that anyone would still have to aim up to hit you at all anyways. Even one jet allows me top pop over atlases in my hm

With two, you just spend more time moving in a very predictable arc.

The only conclusions I can come to from your results are:

1) Confirmation bias - you think the second jet helps and as such remember those times more/assume the second jet helped when it likely didn't, and/or
2) You've experienced this against generally poorly skilled opponents.

Does anyone experienced have a hard time tracking a highlander jumping? Even in the height of my 5JJ HM poptarting days, long jumps just meant I got cored in the air. Leg hits were as rare as they are when I'm moving on the ground.

Well the thing about it now... Maybe, MAYBE you could've said a month ago that there was merit in carrying more than one jump jet. But now, jumping is a strictly defensive posture. The shaking makes them little more than a "twist" to avoid fire - one that lasts several seconds, and while it makes you harder to hit (for some players apparently), it also puts you into a situation where you're not going to fire back effectively. You're turning yourself into a piñata. If you're not using jets to either vault an opponent or to escape from a bad situation in close quarters, there's really no need to use them at all. In either of those cases, 1 jet is as good as 5.

[Wintersdark]

Banky, on 16 June 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Well the thing about it now... Maybe, MAYBE you could've said a month ago that there was merit in carrying more than one jump jet. But now, jumping is a strictly defensive posture. The shaking makes them little more than a "twist" to avoid fire - one that lasts several seconds, and while it makes you harder to hit (for some players apparently), it also puts you into a situation where you're not going to fire back effectively. You're turning yourself into a piñata. If you're not using jets to either vault an opponent or to escape from a bad situation in close quarters, there's really no need to use them at all. In either of those cases, 1 jet is as good as 5.

Exactly.

Pre-nerf, more JJ's offered more hangtime where you can fire... Now, while you can hit someone pretty reliably in brawling range, you're spraying fire all over them so you're better off landing then firing more often than not.

I love JJ's, love them to bits. But really, now... The only mechs I'd consider running multiple ones on for serious builds are lights and maybe, maybe mediums - for lights particularly you still want to be able to take long flights when the need arises.

I'm really hoping that moving forward, as JJ's have been severely nerfed with regards to poptarting, I'm hoping they can have multiple JJ's increase the speed of your liftoff as well as the length of time you can jump, so multiple jets have a stronger defensive role.

Thus, a heavy metal with 5 JJ's would be able to lift off several times faster than one with 1 JJ - giving the extra JJ's real defensive value.

Also, it would make a 12JJ Spider insanely cool.

[tayhimself]

Wintersdark, on 16 June 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Exactly.

Pre-nerf, more JJ's offered more hangtime where you can fire... Now, while you can hit someone pretty reliably in brawling range, you're spraying fire all over them so you're better off landing then firing more often than not.

I love JJ's, love them to bits. But really, now... The only mechs I'd consider running multiple ones on for serious builds are lights and maybe, maybe mediums - for lights particularly you still want to be able to take long flights when the need arises.

I'm really hoping that moving forward, as JJ's have been severely nerfed with regards to poptarting, I'm hoping they can have multiple JJ's increase the speed of your liftoff as well as the length of time you can jump, so multiple jets have a stronger defensive role.

Thus, a heavy metal with 5 JJ's would be able to lift off several times faster than one with 1 JJ - giving the extra JJ's real defensive value.

Also, it would make a 12JJ Spider insanely cool.

Thanks for your opinion. What do you think about a poptarter cataphract 3D. It seems to be still viable at that role thanks to being more responsive than the HGN's. I assume you think 4/4 jump jets are worth it there?

[Wintersdark]

tayhimself, on 16 June 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Thanks for your opinion. What do you think about a poptarter cataphract 3D. It seems to be still viable at that role thanks to being more responsive than the HGN's. I assume you think 4/4 jump jets are worth it there?

Well, that depends. If you can still poptart effectively post-nerf, then yes. It's difficult, as the shake means you can't fire until about half a second after you let off the thrust, so you need to be high enough to do that, stop shaking and have enough time to line up your shot and fire before you fall back into cover. Maximum JJ's are needed for that.

However, I'd argue for most people poptarting just doesn't work anymore. It's possible to do, but substantially more difficult and less effective.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Banky, on 16 June 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Well the thing about it now... Maybe, MAYBE you could've said a month ago that there was merit in carrying more than one jump jet. But now, jumping is a strictly defensive posture. The shaking makes them little more than a "twist" to avoid fire - one that lasts several seconds, and while it makes you harder to hit (for some players apparently), it also puts you into a situation where you're not going to fire back effectively. You're turning yourself into a piñata. If you're not using jets to either vault an opponent or to escape from a bad situation in close quarters, there's really no need to use them at all. In either of those cases, 1 jet is as good as 5.

Totally disagree. I had a match the other day in the Tormaline Desert where I used my 3 JJs on my Heavy Metal to clear terrain that absolutely would not have been cleared with just 1 JJ. As I did this it allowed me to flank and get the drop on and kill 3 seperate mechs, 2 of which I ended up pretty much solo killing by quickly coring from behind because they didn't expect a heavily armed Highlander to sneak up on them. My overal damage taken in that match was very minor.

The reason why people don't seem to realize they need 3 JJs is because they tend to think one dimensionally i.e. they must charge straight at the enemy and engage them as soon as possible. If your always charging forward, just using JJs to help clear low obstacles, then yes you likely won't need or even want more than one simply because your not actually using JJs tactically or effectively. However, if your like me and use terrain to screen you from enemy view, flank and otherwise actually use tactics, 3 JJs are the minimum on any mech if your going to mount any, especially on the Highlanders.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 16 June 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Viktor Drake, on 16 June 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

The reason why people don't seem to realize they need 3 JJs is because they tend to think one dimensionally i.e. they must charge straight at the enemy and engage them as soon as possible. If your always charging forward, just using JJs to help clear low obstacles, then yes you likely won't need or even want more than one simply because your not actually using JJs tactically or effectively. However, if your like me and use terrain to screen you from enemy view, flank and otherwise actually use tactics, 3 JJs are the minimum on any mech if your going to mount any, especially on the Highlanders.

I use my jump jets for exactly that. I don't run straight at foes and only use them to clear low obstacles, I use them to move over all sorts of terrain.

There ARE bits of terrain you can't clear with a single JJ on Tourmaline, but you'd be very, very surprised at how little.

If the terrain has any slope to it, you can flutter your jets to scale it, as you'll regain fuel when you "land" on the slope, before you start sliding down. This allows you to scale virtually any height of slope, unless it's *extremely* steep.

Edited by Wintersdark, 16 June 2013 - 05:13 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Here we go, after a ridiculously large number of hops onto the wrong map, finally got tourmaline. Here I'll demonstrate the upper limits of straight-up jumping with a single jump jet on a heavy metal.

Yes, there are places you can't jump up, but in almost every case there's a 1-jet scaleable section very close by.

Note how broken surfaces allow for a larger jump, as you can let off the thrust to regain a bit of fuel and ground speed before thrusting again - anywhere you don't immediately fall from. This means even the large "unscalable" surfaces that have crystal outcroppings are quite manageable with a single jet.

Edited by Wintersdark, 16 June 2013 - 05:04 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Wintersdark, on 16 June 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

Here we go, after a ridiculously large number of hops onto the wrong map, finally got tourmaline. Here I'll demonstrate the upper limits of straight-up jumping with a single jump jet on a heavy metal.

Yes, there are places you can't jump up, but in almost every case there's a 1-jet scaleable section very close by.

Note how broken surfaces allow for a larger jump, as you can let off the thrust to regain a bit of fuel and ground speed before thrusting again - anywhere you don't immediately fall from. This means even the large "unscalable" surfaces that have crystal outcroppings are quite manageable with a single jet.

Your forgetting two things, speed and opportunity. Sometimes you just need the speed to take advantage of the opportunity.

While you doing all this feathering, looking for all these outcroppings or trying to find a low point to cross, I am already across and taking the fight to the enemy on my terms or perhaps defensively clearing terrain in order to get out of the line of enemy fire. Basically sometimes you just don't have time to be looking for low points or feathering or whatever...you just need to get the hell over the terrain.

Now honestly this is about playstyle plain and simple as there is not really a right or wrong way to do things. 6-10 tons for JJs is alot of weight that could be used for weapons or equipment and there is no denying that. However you just got to decide what you want out of your mech. The great thing about the Highlander mechs is that they are good and effective mechs with our without JJs. You want max firepower, drop them all, want a bit of extra mobility mount one JJ, want maximum mobility and flexibility mount 3-5 depending on variant.

My last parting thought here is that at the end of the day it is just seems a damn shame to take sure a great mech that is designed to use JJs and not mount enough of them to get full use out of the advantages they offer.