10 replies to this topic

[p00k]

PGI's proposed boating penalties essentially do this, but using somewhat rigid rules based on the number of weapons being boated, and the type of weapon, with the penalty being categorical and arbitrary based on weapon type. after all, who's to say the threshold for mlas should be X while llas should be Y?

rather than that, with arbitrary heat penalties for similar weapons fired during an arbitrary window, i'd like to see a nonlinear heat dissipation scale. this would allow you to penalize high heat alphas regardless of if all the weapons are ppcs, or if there's a mix of ppcs, llas, lplas, mlas, flamers, etc. it also takes away the arbitrary 0.5s window PGI has suggested, allowing you to fire your weapons as fast or slow as you want, with a graded penalty the faster you fire them

essentially, the hotter you are, the slower you dissipate heat. so imagine it takes you 1 second to dissipate a single PPC shot if you're starting at 0%. you could fire them 1 second apart, and after 4 seconds and 4 shots, be back at 0%. Or, you could fire them all simultaneously, but you might still be at say, 30% after 4 seconds. similar end result as pgi's alpha boating penalty, but much more robust in addressing weapon variety and eliminating builds that simply use penalty-threshold-minus-one of a given weapon

then, right now heat has 2 parameters. dissipation and capacity. this then allows for a parameter of robustness, so you could potentially give SHS better tolerance, retaining more dissipation at higher temps vs dhs which could then be a full 2.0 but not as potent at higher base heat

[PEEFsmash]

This would kill many balanced builds like laser jenner or other dps mechs that live around high heat. Not to mention, your suggestion is a direct affront to the second law of thermodynamics. I'm fine with alot of things, but spitting in the face of the second law is wrong. (To clarify, dissapation would be faster when the mech is hottest, and dissipation speed would slow as the engine cooled to reach its equilibrium.)

Edited by PEEFsmash, 15 June 2013 - 08:46 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Not really. There is both accuracy / convergence, and the heat capacity which is tied to the dissipation of the heatsinks. So increasing the effectiveness of the DHS also increases the cap. Once Clans arrive with their 2 crit DHS, Clan mechs HS cap will increase even more since they can fit, crit-wise, 3 Clan DHS for every two IS DHS and provided they retain the same dissipation amount as IS DHS, allowing them to fire more often before hitting the cap, with or without PGI upcoming heat band-aid .

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 June 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[p00k]

PEEFsmash, on 15 June 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

This would kill many balanced builds like laser jenner or other dps mechs that live around high heat. Not to mention, your suggestion is a direct affront to the second law of thermodynamics . Im fine with alot of things, bit spitting in the face of the second law is too much. ( To clarify, in all systems relevant to mechlike situations, dissapation would be faster when the mech is hottest, and dissipation speed would slow as the engine reached eqilibrium.)

ah, but it wouldn't if you chain fired the lasers, because then you would have faster heat dissipation and you wouldn't have to live around high heat. you would live around low heat

and yes i'm well aware of how thermodynamics works, engineering major here. but your assumption is based on an assumption of how heatsinks work. yes, in a purely passive system where you maintain a constant ambient temperature, a higher gradient means faster energy transfer. you also assume the rate limiting factor is the transfer from the sink to the atmosphere. there's plenty of sci-fi arguments you could make where that isn't the case. and well, ultimately this game has so many things that ignore physics, yeah

[Volthorne]

I would like to take a moment to mention that there is non-linear heat gain. Firing 4 MLas at 0% heat will get you up to somewhere from 15-20%, and shooting after that will get you to something like 50% (assuming 17ish DHS).

[Satan n stuff]

PEEFsmash, on 15 June 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

This would kill many balanced builds like laser jenner or other dps mechs that live around high heat. Not to mention, your suggestion is a direct affront to the second law of thermodynamics. I'm fine with alot of things, but spitting in the face of the second law is wrong. (To clarify, dissapation would be faster when the mech is hottest, and dissipation speed would slow as the engine cooled to reach its equilibrium.)

If you're constantly running at high heat maybe you need to stop shooting once in a while, seems to work fine for me. Also the very idea of using realistic physics in a game about giant stompy robots is frankly ridiculous. We can ignore the square cube law but not the second law of thermodynamics? I personally don't care about real world physics when it comes to gameplay and balance.
Edit: if you're referring to the 6 medium laser Jenner, that isn't a balanced build, it's a boat. It's supposed to run hot. The 3 medium 3 small laser Jenner doesn't have significant heat issues unless you repeatedly alpha strike on caustic or tourmaline.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 16 June 2013 - 03:34 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Tarl Cabot, on 15 June 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

Not really. There is both accuracy / convergence, and the heat capacity which is tied to the dissipation of the heatsinks. So increasing the effectiveness of the DHS also increases the cap. Once Clans arrive with their 2 crit DHS, Clan mechs HS cap will increase even more since they can fit, crit-wise, 3 Clan DHS for every two IS DHS and provided they retain the same dissipation amount as IS DHS, allowing them to fire more often before hitting the cap, with or without PGI upcoming heat band-aid .

Here's a revolutionary thought: If True Dubs are imbalanced because they raise the heat cap so much, don't let them raise the heat cap so much. Why must their a link between dissipation rate and heat capacity bonus? Why must there be a heat capacity bonus at all? Because we must be able to alpha 3 PPCs together because the Awesome 8Q could do it? The 3 PPCs fired in the same turn, not the same moment.

[Skyfaller]

p00k, on 15 June 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

PGI's proposed boating penalties essentially do this, but using somewhat rigid rules based on the number of weapons being boated, and the type of weapon, with the penalty being categorical and arbitrary based on weapon type. after all, who's to say the threshold for mlas should be X while llas should be Y?

rather than that, with arbitrary heat penalties for similar weapons fired during an arbitrary window, i'd like to see a nonlinear heat dissipation scale. ...

...essentially, the hotter you are, the slower you dissipate heat.

The main problem remains: The mech still can fire pinpoint high alpha boated damage. Just look at six ppc stalkers now.. one shot and they blow their entire heatsink capacity. If it takes them 10 more second to cool off with your (or any other system) you will still have same said stalkers slamming people with an ungodly high damage alpha.

How about low heat high damage boated weapons? AC20, Gauss, UAC5... you can boat them to do 30 damage or more in one location and can fire two or three such alphas before the heat gets red.

First tackle the alphaboat pinpoint accuracy then the heat. Addressing heat as the fix first won't do nothing.

[Pinselborste]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 June 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

Here's a revolutionary thought: If True Dubs are imbalanced because they raise the heat cap so much, don't let them raise the heat cap so much. Why must their a link between dissipation rate and heat capacity bonus? Why must there be a heat capacity bonus at all? Because we must be able to alpha 3 PPCs together because the Awesome 8Q could do it? The 3 PPCs fired in the same turn, not the same moment.

how do you know that same turn doesnt mean same moment?

[Stoicblitzer]

Skyfaller, on 16 June 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

The main problem remains: The mech still can fire pinpoint high alpha boated damage. Just look at six ppc stalkers now.. one shot and they blow their entire heatsink capacity. If it takes them 10 more second to cool off with your (or any other system) you will still have same said stalkers slamming people with an ungodly high damage alpha.

How about low heat high damage boated weapons? AC20, Gauss, UAC5... you can boat them to do 30 damage or more in one location and can fire two or three such alphas before the heat gets red.

First tackle the alphaboat pinpoint accuracy then the heat. Addressing heat as the fix first won't do nothing.

pinpoint damage can't really be changed. the solutions i am thinking of for that would probably further alienate newer players and maybe even vets because it would be so radically different from previous MW games. we have to look at changing other related things. I think a combination of SRM buff and a nonlinear heat dissipation system like what p00k is describing would reintroduce brawling into the game. If a 3+PPC mech has to fire less at close range while SRMs tear them apart, then I think the game is working as intended™.

Alas, PGI doesn't listen to good ideas. oh and **** splash damage.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 16 June 2013 - 10:09 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Pinselborste, on 16 June 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

how do you know that same turn doesnt mean same moment?

How do you know it does?

My best indication that it's not the same moment is the whole shebang of hit locations and attack rolls. You roll for the attack with every single weapon, and roll a random hit location for each attack. How could a Jenner with two lasers in the left arm hit the right arm on the target mech with one of those lasers, and the left leg with the other? The pilot must be firing these separately, otherwise the distance between those lasers just cannot justify such a distance on target. Even without convergence, it's hard to explain.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 16 June 2013 - 11:32 AM.