19 replies to this topic

[BigMekkUrDakka]

i'm sick and tired of hearing this "balance" cry and whine, i hear it all of mine more than ten year's of online gaming experience. so i will start my own cry and whine tread
there is no such thing as "balance" in gaming, at least absolute balance, there is ALWAYS advantage of some kind for one side of conflict (even if its recount bar competition in WOW) and there is always minority of players who will start storm on the forums with any change in this illusory "balance" mostly because they don't want abandon theirs favorite play style in favor of currently strongest one, or just don't have guts to quit game that all of a sudden became too competitive for them, or on contrary too casual and low skill.
so regarding to MWO its IMPOSSIBLE to balance this game for each casual "ipwn" dude who wants to win no matter how much useless his mech and loadout, and how much he is unskilled himself.
this is team game! and almost every mech and weapon have theirs designated place in the team but u should watch it as whole, not just from selfish perspective of back line 2gauss paper mech pilot, or core assault mech, or forntline brawler, as soon as we will see game mode with draft pick of mech's we will probably could start discussion on balance (we have 8ppl premade drops right now but thats not enough)
so please dear developers from PGI if you read this forums, please STOP you will never get any good feedback in "balance" treads, just let those guys to valve their steam here and continue play and pay

[Syllogy]

But the .50 cal Sniper Rifle is a 1-shot kill and it's OP!

[BigMekkUrDakka]

Syllogy, on 14 June 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

But the .50 cal Sniper Rifle is a 1-shot kill and it's OP!

ever thought how much OP nuclear and thermo nuclear weapons?

[AlmightyAeng]

Forget balance? No, balance isn't about making every single build viable and making every player levelled regardless of skill.

It's about presenting several viable options of gameplay without a CLEAR frontrunner. Will there always be a 'best' a 'preferred' style? Yeah...but I'd hope that there are several close seconds.

Right now, I don't see it.

That said, you do have a point about the constant posts. Nearly 1000 replies and over 25,000 views in 3 days on Paul's June 11 gameplay post. Good God there's a lot of grief there...it's kept me entertained for hours.

Talk only goes so far...they need to TEST. And yes, when we finally get a mechanic for limiting what 'mechs you can take, balance can truly get tested.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 14 June 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

Ghost Badger, on 14 June 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Forget balance? No, balance isn't about making every single build viable and making every player levelled regardless of skill.

It's about presenting several viable options of gameplay without a CLEAR frontrunner. Will there always be a 'best' a 'preferred' style? Yeah...but I'd hope that there are several close seconds.

Right now, I don't see it.

probably you don't see it because current matchmaking is a mess, so its really rare to see close skilled match with equal damage/assists but then u see those rare occasions, its not that any mechs and builds are clearly on the lead especially then you can see how much effort every team member put in the win, how well light's was scouting, distracting, and finishing off fleeting mechs, how well mediums harassed enemy and protected theirs assaults and so on, so u know every one did theirs best even if their damage numbers doesn't reach whooping amounts.

PS: actually i'm not sure if its valid example of good game, probably one sided steamroll in favor of one team IS how it should be, don't know wish this game live up to have own competitive scene

Edited by BigMekkUrDakka, 14 June 2013 - 08:10 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

It's hard to judge without a mechanic enforcing role/tonnage warfare.

Most 8 mans I see these days are mainly 5-6 assaults, pair of lights, ppc/gauss.

It gets boring. Really hoping CW breathes some variety back into the game.

[Stoicblitzer]

**** cw. it'll likely be some incomplete text-based gui piece of trash. WE NEED LOBBIES AND INTEGRATED VOIP.

[AlmightyAeng]

Stoicblitzer, on 14 June 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

**** cw. it'll likely be some incomplete text-based gui piece of trash. WE NEED LOBBIES AND INTEGRATED VOIP.

I sincerely hope you're wrong. If you're right, I'll be closing my wallet, and I'm guessing many other players will, too.

[St10invalid_argument]

What balance?

[Lefty Lucy]

Ghost Badger, on 14 June 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

I sincerely hope you're wrong. If you're right, I'll be closing my wallet, and I'm guessing many other players will, too.

How could he possibly be wrong? PGI has a hard time doing the simple things right. How do you think CW could possibly be even half as ambitious as they want it to be?

[Dan Nashe]

Balance isn't about fairness, it's about variety. If a six ppc stalker, hypothetically, is clearly the best mech, the game will suck because if you are not piloting one, you are doing it wrong. I don't paricularly want to play a game where every single player is in the same mech. It's boring.

Also, there are a thousand games to play. I like to win. I play to win, but if I don't like the game, just winning is not enough to keep me playing. If the types of play aren't balanced, only players who like that one game play type and never get sick of it willl stay, and the game will die. I really enjoy playing high pinpoint alpha big mechs with long range and jjs. 4 ppc assaults are fun.

But I love playing my YLW, my Ilya, my trebs, and such. If ppc assaultsare the best, they're all I can enjoy playing, and I will quit due to lack of variety. After 100 drops in a row of that, it's dull.

Also, what's wrong with not liking some playstyles and thus not wanting them to be the best winning strategy? I absolutely hate assault base turtling in assault 8s. If that becomes the easy, common way to win, every game will b a0-0 15 minute snooze fest. And I will quit rather than play that game. I would rather not play than win that way.

Note, this Has Nothing To Do with the cheese discussion. I can run nonstop cheese, encourage veyone else to do so, and still urge pgi to nerf those builds without being a hypocrite. I agree that calling other people dumb for running the best build is nonsens. Similarly, I do not insult people for turtling in assaults on assaults. It's a smart way to play and fiun if other teams would rather lose than wait 15 minutes. What is key here is that it is not griefing, it's the obcious snart move do to the game mode.

So, long story short, balance mean's variety which is good for the game. Insulting other players for taking strong builds, however, is just an unhealthy mindset, because playing to win by legal means is a valid way to play games.

Unless of course the group agrees otherwise, but with thousands of players, it's unrealistic to expect everyone to play casually for everyone's enjoyment.

Edited by DanNashe, 14 June 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[marabou]

Just bring back srm damage and all will be ok.

[Sasha Volkova]

BigMekkUrDakka, on 14 June 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

as soon as we will see game mode with draft pick of mech's we will probably could start discussion on balance

Draft pick? are you kidding me?
I almost fell off my chair laughing when I saw that comment.
This is not LoL or HoN or any other ¨team based¨ game like those.
The matchmaker is supposed to arrange us into teams with mechs that are equal of weight (in total)
However the matchmaker is currently not working as intended - as soon as it does however, the game will be more skill oriented than luck.

However draft pick...
This is not a ¨I see you pick a medium so I counter with a fast heavy¨ type of game.
Its a mech simulator (hardly really... but its still categorized as such)
This is not your run of the mill MMO game and hopefully it will never be.
It other words, balance is supposed to be controlled by the matchmaker but is currently not working as intended.

Edited by 0okami, 14 June 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

0okami, on 14 June 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

However the matchmaker is currently not working as intended - as soon as it does however, the game will be more skill oriented than luck.

However draft pick...
This is not a ¨I see you pick a medium so I counter with a fast heavy¨ type of game.
Its a mech simulator (hardly really... but its still categorized as such)
This is not your run of the mill MMO game and hopefully it will never be.
It other words, balance is supposed to be controlled by the matchmaker but is currently not working as intended.

cant agree with you, i rather would see players decide what strategy they will use and pick mechs accordingly themselves, than some illusory "matchmaker" bot will create team with no synergy, for example all LRM boat team with spotters but no direct fire mechs (i already seen this)

and by draft pick i meant that players can decide what team comp they will run they shouldn't see enemy team picks, but they can decide what they will run "sniper heavy", "flank and brawl", "balanced" or whatever team "build" you can think off

DanNashe, on 14 June 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

But I love playing my YLW, my Ilya, my trebs, and such. If ppc assaultsare the best, they're all I can enjoy playing, and I will quit due to lack of variety. After 100 drops in a row of that, it's dull.

Also, what's wrong with not liking some playstyles and thus not wanting them to be the best winning strategy? I absolutely hate assault base turtling in assault 8s. If that becomes the easy, common way to win, every game will b a0-0 15 minute snooze fest. And I will quit rather than play that game. I would rather not play than win that way.

you and supposedly yours teammates, can pick team of ballistic heavies add one or two lrm boat, probably add one or two noted before assault snipers to draw fire to them, and you will steamroll enemy 4ppc op assault team, of course if you play it right, those high alfa high heat builds only good to kill noobs who stand still or charge blindly on the open.
so we not only doesn't have gamemode that will show us real balance of power, im afraid we dosent have even players to prove that its exist or its dosent.

[FunkyFritter]

BigMekkUrDakka, on 14 June 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

there is no such thing as "balance" in gaming, at least absolute balance, there is ALWAYS advantage of some kind for one side of conflict

Rock paper scissors.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

FunkyFritter, on 14 June 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

Rock paper scissors.

and this kind of "balance" works only for named game, in (virtual)reality we always have different comps of those opposing each other, so in terms of starcraft one paper beats one rock, two rocks beat 4 papers, and 10 rocks beat everything besides 8.345 scissors.
in short you cant dumb it down this much unless you speaking 1v1 encounters

Edited by BigMekkUrDakka, 14 June 2013 - 11:54 PM.

[Volthorne]

BigMekkUrDakka, on 14 June 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

and this kind of "balance" works only for named game, in (virtual)reality we always have different comps of those opposing each other, so in terms of starcraft one paper beats one rock, two rocks beat 4 papers, and 10 rocks beat everything besides 8.345 scissors.
in short you cant dumb it down this much unless you speaking 1v1 encounters

So larger numbers than your opponent = win? WHO KNEW! Quick, get the press and tell all the MLG players! This needs to be spread around ASAP!

In all seriousness, you SHOULD be aiming for Rock, Paper, Scissors (aka Perfect Imbalance).

Edited by Volthorne, 15 June 2013 - 12:01 AM.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

Volthorne, on 15 June 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

So larger numbers than your opponent = win? WHO KNEW! Quick, get the press and tell all the MLG players! This needs to be spread around ASAP!

In all seriousness, you SHOULD be aiming for Rock, Paper, Scissors (aka Perfect Imbalance).

read before you post really, you self pwnd yourself so hard right now (

[Volthorne]

BigMekkUrDakka, on 15 June 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

read before you post really, you self pwnd yourself so hard right now (

I fail to see how. If you're referring to the first part, you should probably upgrade your sarcasm detector.

If you're talking about the Perfect Imbalance bit, I direct you here:
http://www.penny-arc...rfect-imbalance

(basically it talks about balancing through not quite balancing, if you don't want to watch a video that contains high-level discussion)

Edited by Volthorne, 15 June 2013 - 12:45 AM.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

Volthorne, on 15 June 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

I fail to see how. If you're referring to the first part, you should probably upgrade your sarcasm detector.

If you're talking about the Perfect Imbalance bit, I direct you here:
http://www.penny-arc...rfect-imbalance

(basically it talks about balancing through not quite balancing, if you don't want to watch a video that contains high-level discussion)

okay! i know you was trying really hard on sarcastic part but i will ask you again READ before you post, i will give you a hint - its not about greater numbers its about how scissors synergism with paper makes rocks obsolete, so please forget your petty theorycrafting once and for all, no matter what "balance" model you will try implement player's will find their own answer how to be imba