56 replies to this topic

[Diablobo]

I am by no means a great player, but I win more than I lose, and I kill more than I die. I am consistently one of the top players on my team, and I have been playing since right before the Founders offer closed. Why is it that on 8 or 9 out of 10 drops, I have to have one or more guys on my team that is completely worthless? If someone is new, or has a really bad performance in Elo, aren't there enough games for them to play in without screwing up my team?

It is one thing to be new and I get that we all were at one point, but there is no reason to have a guy who hasn't played but a handful of games to be put on the same team with guys who know what they are doing and depend on their teammates to be semi-competent.

I could care less about missiles, poptarting, or PPC boating.....if there is one thing that will make me quit, it's the serious fail that is the matchmaker. Let the weaker players play each other, and quit putting them in the matches with the decent players.

[Diablobo]

Jonathan Paine came up with a great idea back on Mar 26 about having a tiered system.

Greens>Cadets>Veterans>Elite

Greens play only Greens and Cadets

Cadets play only Greens, Cadets, and Veterans

Veterans play only Cadets, Veterans, and Elites

Elites play only Veterans and Elites.

This is the best idea I have ever heard and I think it would solve the whole new player spoiling a good team problem. It would also make the discouragement of getting stomped by the really good players while still new not so bad.

Edited by Diablobo, 18 June 2013 - 03:57 AM.

[tenderloving]

There aren't enough players in the system for ELO to work properly.

[DarkDevilDancer]

The system currently tries to match elo first, match weight second and then fills up remaining slot with what it can.

More than once I've dropped in a match where I get the only kills as the other 7 drop dead piecemeal, there's little you can do when that happens but remember you too were a noob that died with less than 100 damage once upon a time.

When the game goes live and we get a bigger playerbase this should happen alot less.

[Diablobo]

tenderloving, on 18 June 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

There aren't enough players in the system for ELO to work properly.

Yes, you're right....I suspected this for a couple of months now. I knew it was a bad sign when they stopped posting the players online counter.

DarkDevilDancer, on 18 June 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

When the game goes live and we get a bigger playerbase this should happen alot less.

I am not too experienced with beta testing, but I don't see how having the game fully released is going to increase the number of players. How will this happen? Do most players stay away from beta games?

[tenderloving]

I'm not sure where the players will come from.

*Anecdotal* I've already told any friends I have about this game; they tried it and hated it. I'm only sticking around due to hope/denial.

[hammerreborn]

Diablobo, on 18 June 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

I am not too experienced with beta testing, but I don't see how having the game fully released is going to increase the number of players. How will this happen? Do most players stay away from beta games?

Yes. I stopped playing Marvel Heroes during closed beta cause knowing everything would be wiped periodically is annoying. It wasn't an issue with MWO because let's face it, it's a game you could play for 15 minutes and not worry about "progress", while a ARPG you lose levels, loot, and everything else.

Hell, I barely play Infinite Crisis because it's annoying to have to rebuy the heroes every weekend (not to mention log on during the rare times the servers are up without getting yelled at by the wife for playing video games during "her time")

Some people probably think that beta means that wipes will come by live, so they'll wait out the bugs and issues and play the finished project. Not to mention "hopefully" upon live PGI/IGP will really start actually marketing this game, rather than the occassional banner ad at a site I go to that anyone with adblock would never, ever see.

Edited by hammerreborn, 18 June 2013 - 04:24 AM.

[DarkDevilDancer]

Well until Xmas time I didn't even know the game was in open beta I completely missed the founders stage.

When it goes live I'm assuming they'll start to advertise the game, I've yet to see a mwo advert.

At the moment the learning curve is still really high but that's going to be helped by tutorials and new players only facing other new players.

[Inhibition]

This problem is creating great complain,

please read my thread

http://mwomercs.com/...-to-be-changed/

[Kyynele]

Diablobo, on 18 June 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

I am not too experienced with beta testing, but I don't see how having the game fully released is going to increase the number of players. How will this happen? Do most players stay away from beta games?

Getting even somewhat decent ratings on some major game reviews sites is likely to boost player count significantly, I'd assume?

I also assume one of the main reasons to keep the game in perpetual beta is to postpone those ratings until the game is at a point content wise that decent ratings would be expected.

edit: I think it's also very beneficial for the new players to sometimes get to play with more experienced players as well. If you only see noob players playing, you can only pick up influences from noobish gameplay. I'd personally prefer to see in the match listing who are piloting trial mechs, so that I'd know to write more in the chat instead of assuming people know what they're supposed to do, but I'm sure there are people who would abuse that to grief others in some way. Or at least QQ about the injustice of having to endure noobs.

Edited by Kyynele, 18 June 2013 - 04:32 AM.

[JokerVictor]

Kyynele, on 18 June 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

Getting even somewhat decent ratings on some major game reviews sites is likely to boost player count significantly, I'd assume?

I also assume one of the main reasons to keep the game in perpetual beta is to postpone those ratings until the game is at a point content wise that decent ratings would be expected.

Unless this game changes significantly in 3 months, it won't be getting decent ratings. Given the track record so far.... things aren't looking very cheery.

Elo has been a complete disaster since it's introduction, it's time to start over with the matchmaker. Here's a lovely argument on the subject.

[Dude42]

I feel your pain so much OP. I've spectated some things that nobody should ever witness.

I mean is the new player ELO thing working at all? Or are we just getting the guys on game 26 that did well versus the other nubs, or what?

I would love to hear the official explanation for why it happens so frequently.

Although, for the record, for the last 2 days or so, I've been having fairly good games. Win or lose the damage values for both teams have been being pretty close. But I have probably just been really lucky. Or maybe I finally fought my way out of ELO Hell, who knows

[Diablobo]

I said when Elo came out that it was a bad idea. Since Elo is designed for rating two different players or teams with the exact same set of rules or equipment, it cannot work in MWO where the players mechs can hurt or help a player by such a great amount. We don't have the exact same equipment and starting positions.

A chess player does not get two queens and an extra move, but in MWO a pilot in a crappy trial mech is going to have a much harder time going up against a tricked out and customized assault or heavy mech. Any matchmaker that doesn't take mech loadouts into account is an automatic fail.

Elo just doesn't work for variable equipment matches.

[hammerreborn]

Dude42, on 18 June 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

I feel your pain so much OP. I've spectated some things that nobody should ever witness.

I mean is the new player ELO thing working at all? Or are we just getting the guys on game 26 that did well versus the other nubs, or what?

I would love to hear the official explanation for why it happens so frequently.

Although, for the record, for the last 2 days or so, I've been having fairly good games. Win or lose the damage values for both teams have been being pretty close. But I have probably just been really lucky. Or maybe I finally fought my way out of ELO Hell, who knows

Premades can screw everything the hell up. Let me just put it this way.

If I play with Group A of 4, we have very tough matches where in my Jenner I perform exclusive scouting because if I approach the team I die and die hard.

If I play with Group B of 4, it's bad city and that same Jenner rarely if ever does less than 400 damage because I can run circles around every mech without fear for my safety. Hell, I can shut down in the middle of them, watch them all assume I died, get up, and run off.

Let's just say I have a lot more fun with Group A than B. But that's how average Elo works for you.

Diablobo, on 18 June 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

I said when Elo came out that it was a bad idea. Since Elo is designed for rating two different players or teams with the exact same set of rules or equipment, it cannot work in MWO where the players mechs can hurt or help a player by such a great amount. We don't have the exact same equipment and starting positions.

A chess player does not get two queens and an extra move, but in MWO a pilot in a crappy trial mech is going to have a much harder time going up against a tricked out and customized assault or heavy mech. Any matchmaker that doesn't take mech loadouts into account is an automatic fail.

Elo just doesn't work for variable equipment matches.

/facepalm

Various online games use Elo ratings for player-versus-player rankings. In Guild Wars, Elo ratings are used to record guild rating gained and lost through Guild versus Guild battles, which are two-team fights. The initial K-value was 30, but was changed to 5 in January 2007, then changed to 15 in July 2009.^[35] World of Warcraft formerly used the Elo Rating system when teaming up and comparing Arena players, but now uses a system similar to Microsoft's TrueSkill.^[36] The MOBA game League of Legends uses an Elo rating system as well.^[37] The game Puzzle Pirates uses the Elo rating system to determine the standings in the various puzzles. Roblox introduced the Elo rating in 2010.^[38] Counter-Strike: Global Offensive also uses the Elo rating.^[39]

Edited by hammerreborn, 18 June 2013 - 04:44 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Just not enough people playing, so you get skill levels all over the place sometimes.

Once community warfare comes we should get an influx of players who have put the game down for a while. Once it finally leaves closed beta i would assume that they start an aggressive marketing strategy, so hopefully that will bring another injection of players.

This game could really use a proper tutorial so that noobs don't have to learn through a baptism of fire. That would help retain some of the new players.

That being said, Mechwarrior is a niche game, always has been always will be. There is enough of a dedicated fan base to keep this game alive regardless of how many new players leave IMO. It seems that people either love it or hate it.

[Diablobo]

hammerreborn, on 18 June 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

/facepalm

Various online games use Elo ratings for player-versus-player rankings. In Guild Wars, Elo ratings are used to record guild rating gained and lost through Guild versus Guild battles, which are two-team fights. The initial K-value was 30, but was changed to 5 in January 2007, then changed to 15 in July 2009.^[35] World of Warcraft formerly used the Elo Rating system when teaming up and comparing Arena players, but now uses a system similar to Microsoft's TrueSkill.^[36] The MOBA game League of Legends uses an Elo rating system as well.^[37] The game Puzzle Pirates uses the Elo rating system to determine the standings in the various puzzles. Roblox introduced the Elo rating in 2010.^[38] Counter-Strike: Global Offensive also uses the Elo rating.^[39]

How many of those games have different types of equipment on each player? Does Counterstrike have players in full armor armed with a deagle, grenades, and an assault rifle up against naked dudes with only a starter pistol? Absolutely not.

That is what going out in a trial mech versus a fully optimized custom mech is like.

Edited by Diablobo, 18 June 2013 - 04:51 AM.

[JokerVictor]

hammerreborn, on 18 June 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

/facepalm

Various online games use Elo ratings for player-versus-player rankings. In Guild Wars, Elo ratings are used to record guild rating gained and lost through Guild versus Guild battles, which are two-team fights. The initial K-value was 30, but was changed to 5 in January 2007, then changed to 15 in July 2009.^[35] World of Warcraft formerly used the Elo Rating system when teaming up and comparing Arena players, but now uses a system similar to Microsoft's TrueSkill.^[36] The MOBA game League of Legends uses an Elo rating system as well.^[37] The game Puzzle Pirates uses the Elo rating system to determine the standings in the various puzzles. Roblox introduced the Elo rating in 2010.^[38] Counter-Strike: Global Offensive also uses the Elo rating.^[39]

I can copy/paste wikipedia too!

Seriously though, none of those games are comparable to MWO for a couple very huge glaring reasons. The closest is LoL, because it is also a class based game that uses ELO to randomly assign 'equal' skill teams.

Now, why does it work for decently well for LoL and not MWO? The biggest reason is pregame lobbies. You have time in LoL to set up your team composition before the match starts, which allows you to balance roles and such before the game starts. The heroes in LoL also don't start out at varying levels, like the mechs in MWO do.

And finally, the most glaringly obvious problem, is that MWO has a terribly low population right now. If the player numbers were healthy, this system would be working much better. Even if applying Elo to this game is terrible in principle, it would at least be functional if it had a large enough player pool to work with. But it doesn't, so the problem compounds.

[Dude42]

Diablobo, on 18 June 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

How many of those games have different types of equipment on each player? Does Counterstrike have players in full armor armed with a deagle, grenades, and an assault rifle up against naked dudes with only a starter pistol? Absolutely not.

That is what going out in a trial mech versus a fully optimized custom mech is like.

Without the starter pistol. Might hurt someone...

[hammerreborn]

Diablobo, on 18 June 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

How many of those games have different types of equipment on each player? Does Counterstrike have players in full armor armed with a deagle, grenades, and an assault rifle up against naked dudes with only a starter pistol? Absolutely not.

That is what going out in a trial mech versus a fully optimized custom mech is like.

Who gives a flying **** about trial mechs? Seriously, if you bring in trial mechs you have already lost the argument.

TRIAL MECHS LOSE AGAINST FULLY CUSTOM MECHS, NEWS AT 11! Good thing you can buy a custom mech after like 5-10 matches.

The more apt comparison is an ac40 Jager vs a 4-6ppc stalker, which in CS terms is a shotty vs an awp. Unless the shotty gets the jump on him the awp usually wins by being a camper *****, like pretty much all ppc stalkers.

And to continue laughing at your argument, your analogy happens all the damn time, so thanks for supporting what I said! The CS game is on round 15, you just joined. You have a USP/Glock vs people with AWPs, full armor and helmets, gernades, NV, defusal kits, and **** tons of money.

Congrats at completely failing to make a coherent argument.

Edited by hammerreborn, 18 June 2013 - 05:11 AM.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

An Elo system is only as good as its implementation, and we all know how MWO's matchmaker works. Matches with 200 ton difference in teams. Matches where 2-3 teammates boast about how good they are, then charge the enemy line one by one.

All MWO needed to do was use the Elo system to establish a kiddie pool where the newbies can play without getting stomped by the vets. Instead we got the current mess of a matchmaker.

On a long enough timeline, PGI's Elo matchmaker may balance out, but it will take thousands of matches for every player for that to happen, and I seriously doubt MW:O will still have a player population by that time if the current trend keeps up.

Edited by Eldragon, 18 June 2013 - 05:24 AM.