61 replies to this topic

[Pater Mors]

Wow, thanks for all the good comments. Wasn't expecting that. I doubt it'll be implemented either, but again, it'd be nice if we could try these things out and THEN get a decision. Maybe on the test server.

[Goose]

Pater Mors, on 16 June 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

5 damage frontloaded into the ball and 5 spread as the trail hits.

Neat as hell! Don't know how well it would test, but man: This needs to be tried!

Hexenhammer, on 16 June 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

I wouldn't mind seeing this as a new weapon system. Something new, something to tork of the so called purists.

Plasma Rifle? In 30 years?

Edited by Goose, 16 June 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[Lord Ikka]

Pater Mors, on 16 June 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

I threw this in the other PPC topic so I think it applies here too. I'd like to see PPC's do damage as per the picture below:



5 damage frontloaded into the ball and 5 spread as the trail hits.

All other stats remain the same.

Really, really good idea!

[MustrumRidcully]

One Medic Army, on 16 June 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

So, I have a crazy idea for PPCs:
Right now they deal 10 dmg for 8 heat with a cooldown of 4 seconds.

Change them to deal 5 dmg for 4 heat at a cooldown of 2 seconds.

Boom, no more super concentrated single volley damage, but same heat efficiency and the same DPS.

So, lets have it, how stupid is this idea?

This could be a general approach to dealing with high damage alphas. Weapon deals too much damage when boated? Lower damage per shot, raise recycle rate.

But not, there is a bit more to this:

How much damage do you need to kill an Atlas? Let'S say it:s 200 damage, giving you a few misses and all that.

Let's say you have 4 PPCs. That means you need to fire 5 salvos with the current PPCs, or 10 salvos with the new, proposed PPCs stats.

How long does it take to fire 5 salvos?
Old Stats, you fire at 0, 4, 8, 12, and 16 seconds. So, the DPS_200Damage for the old Quad-PPC is 12.5
New Stats: You fire at 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 seconds. So the DPS_200Damage for the new Quad PPC is 11.11
While the theoretical DPS determined by damage per shot / recycle time is the same, the practical DPS has been lowered.

Also, another difference:
Old PPCs gives you a 3.something window between each shot, new PPCs only 1.something..

Our primary focus was getting rid of 40+ damage alphas (especially at long range)? Were these side effects desired?
We could fix them probably, by raising the damage per shot a bit higher than.

We also migh tnot need to go all the way to half recylle time and half damage per shot. Let's lower the recycle rate just to 3 seconds, and lower the damage to 7.5 damage per shot. A 30 damage alpha might be more reasonable.


We could do something like this for every high alpha weapon. But would PGI be willing to get away from the AC/x dealing x damage per shot?

[BigMekkUrDakka]

never though that ppc's are pretty close to canon now? they SHOULD load huge damage! they are gods of energy weapons!
and tbh i think mechs have too much armor nowdays, ppc barrage should instakill or mutilate anything that lighter than stalker.
and if you halve current armor value this will only add depth to game, people will probably start thinking about using covers, flanking, scouting and proper positioning instead of blindly rushing into enemy team positions
and this will make assaults less popular, because why ride huge target that loses arms/legs almost instantly?

[johnyboy420]

i like that bolt idea but make it

PPC: speed:1500MS, 3sec cooldown 9.5 heat

ER PPC: speed:1725MS 3.5sec cooldown 11.5 heat

[ExtremeA79]

Pater Mors, on 16 June 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

I threw this in the other PPC topic so I think it applies here too. I'd like to see PPC's do damage as per the picture below:



5 damage frontloaded into the ball and 5 spread as the trail hits.

All other stats remain the same.

I know you got that idea from Sarma, but you are getting it wrong.

PPC's shoot a concentrated stream of particles. Not a ball with a less powerful trail behind it.
Your idea looks more like it shot a powerful ball of energy and progressively gets less concentrated, less powered. A weak trail. Not canon at all.
If anything it should like like 1-2 points in every section adding up to 10 if you want to stay canon.

BTW PPC's are SUPPOSED to be sniper weapons.
And the problem isn't with PPC's, its with heat and boating.

Edited by Darren Tyler, 17 June 2013 - 05:14 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

One Medic Army, on 16 June 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

So, I have a crazy idea for PPCs:
Right now they deal 10 dmg for 8 heat with a cooldown of 4 seconds.

Change them to deal 5 dmg for 4 heat at a cooldown of 2 seconds.

Boom, no more super concentrated single volley damage, but same heat efficiency and the same DPS.

So, lets have it, how stupid is this idea?

Sorry man That's a Light PPC and does not come for a few more decades.

[One Medic Army]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 June 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

Sorry man That's a Light PPC and does not come for a few more decades.

To be fair the light PPC deals 5 damage over 10 seconds.
The normal PPC deals 10 damage over 10 seconds.

I can see keeping number of missiles standard, number of pellets standard for LBX, and damage standard for AC/2 /5 /10 and /20. There's really no reason we need to keep PPCs dealing 10dmg per hit other than convention.

I like that there's an energy weapon that deals it's damage in single hit bursts, it's just that the current meta is showing how silly having massive amounts of precise concentrated burst damage is. Heat won't balance it, and we can't change the tonnage/crits of the PPC. I'd rather not make it yet another beam weapon like lasers.
Thus I suggest breaking the damage and heat up over consecutive hits and speeding the recharge.

[Joseph Mallan]

One Medic Army, on 17 June 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

To be fair the light PPC deals 5 damage over 10 seconds.
The normal PPC deals 10 damage over 10 seconds.

Sorry Medic but the whole Turn is 10 seconds not just the firing of weapons. Movement/Weapons fire/Heat/Physicals all took place in 10 seconds.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 June 2013 - 06:10 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 June 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Sorry Medic but the whole Turn is 10 seconds not just the firing of weapons. Movement/Weapons fire/Heat/Physicals all took place in 10 seconds.

Yes, and weapons were only described as x damage per turn.
How long it took them to deal said damage generally wasn't specified.
Gauss was 1 shot.
Autocannons are specifically stated to have varied.
I know it's assumed that energy weapons are typically assumed to be 1 shot per 10sec, but I haven't yet read that part in the manuals.

Edited by One Medic Army, 17 June 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

One Medic Army, on 17 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Yes, and weapons were only described as x damage per turn.
How long it took them to deal said damage generally wasn't specified.
Gauss was 1 shot.
Autocannons are specifically stated to have varied.
I know it's assumed that energy weapons are typically assumed to be 1 shot per 10sec, but I haven't yet read that part in the manuals.

You didn't?
1) Init roll
2) Move
3) Declare fire (Fire any weapon once)
4) Roll to hit
5) Determine hit locations
6) Tabulate heat.

One10 second turn, included the enemy doing all the same things. SO My half of a Turn was 5 seconds and your retaliation was 5 seconds.

[Braggart]

BigMekkUrDakka, on 17 June 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

never though that ppc's are pretty close to canon now? they SHOULD load huge damage! they are gods of energy weapons!
and tbh i think mechs have too much armor nowdays, ppc barrage should instakill or mutilate anything that lighter than stalker.
and if you halve current armor value this will only add depth to game, people will probably start thinking about using covers, flanking, scouting and proper positioning instead of blindly rushing into enemy team positions
and this will make assaults less popular, because why ride huge target that loses arms/legs almost instantly?

are you freaking serious man. You are a complete freaking *****. *****. 6 PPC would not insta kill anything table top. you know why, because hit locations are rolled randomly, meaning these weapons are powerful but not insta kill powerful.

damn tools always coming in like they know anything.

Sorry, 1 thing would die from 6 ppcs firing. the mech that fired them.

Edited by Braggart, 17 June 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[Pater Mors]

Darren Tyler, on 17 June 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

I know you got that idea from Sarma, but you are getting it wrong.

PPC's shoot a concentrated stream of particles. Not a ball with a less powerful trail behind it.
Your idea looks more like it shot a powerful ball of energy and progressively gets less concentrated, less powered. A weak trail. Not canon at all.
If anything it should like like 1-2 points in every section adding up to 10 if you want to stay canon.

BTW PPC's are SUPPOSED to be sniper weapons.
And the problem isn't with PPC's, its with heat and boating.

Actually... I just made that idea up off the top of my head, not from Sarna. I rarely visit Sarna these days.

PPC's in game currently act exactly as shown in that picture, except all 10dmg is frontloaded into the 'ball' and the trail is just a visual effect. I just took something from both sides of the argument (PPC as beam weapon vs PPC as ballistic weapon). The way PPC's work right now is not canonical either, so it hardly matters.

And yes, I agree that the problem is heat (not boating, boating is not an issue it's a symptom). See my signature for my thoughts on that subject.

Edited by Pater Mors, 17 June 2013 - 06:31 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 June 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

You didn't?
1) Init roll
2) Move
3) Declare fire (Fire any weapon once)
4) Roll to hit
5) Determine hit locations
6) Tabulate heat.

One10 second turn, included the enemy doing all the same things. SO My half of a Turn was 5 seconds and your retaliation was 5 seconds.

Yeah, and it uses the same terminology for Autocannons, which fire multiple bullets.
Your point?

[Joseph Mallan]

Braggart, on 17 June 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

are you freaking serious man. You are a complete freaking *****. *****. 6 PPC would not insta kill anything table top. you know why, because hit locations are rolled randomly, meaning these weapons are powerful but not insta kill powerful.

damn tools always coming in like they know anything.

Actually it is less likely that 6 PPCs would kill something on TT because of dice, but it is not impossible. hit a 35 tn Mech in the center torso with 30 damage and say the Right Leg with 20. You have a crippled Mech even with Maxed armor!

One Medic Army, on 17 June 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Yeah, and it uses the same terminology for Autocannons, which fire multiple bullets.
Your point?

My point...
...
...
Oh Yeah, We fire to many times per turn right now!

[Braggart]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 June 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

Actually it is less likely that 6 PPCs would kill something on TT because of dice, but it is not impossible. hit a 35 tn Mech in the center torso with 30 damage and say the Right Leg with 20. You have a crippled Mech even with Maxed armor!


My point...
...
...
Oh Yeah, We fire to many times per turn right now!

insta kill, not cripple. My point stands. The requirement of luck for that to happen is..............................

[Joseph Mallan]

Braggart, on 17 June 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

insta kill, not cripple. My point stands. The requirement of luck for that to happen is..............................

Rather low actually. 7 is the most common roll. Also on TT 1/2 Armor so 30 damage on a Panther (CT 14 Armor and 11 Structure) 3 PPC core it. and those 2 PPC o the Leg (12 Armor & 8 Structure) Remove the Leg!

[El Bandito]

I support this idea, over what we have now.

[Turook]

Pater Mors, on 16 June 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

I threw this in the other PPC topic so I think it applies here too. I'd like to see PPC's do damage as per the picture below:



5 damage frontloaded into the ball and 5 spread as the trail hits.

All other stats remain the same.

I support this 100%