23 replies to this topic

[SirLANsalot]

Reading this http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LBX it states that LBX's can fire both slug and scatter shots, on the fly.

Quote

The cannon is able to punch through an opponent's armor with standard rounds, and then fire cluster rounds to increase the chance of scoring a critical hit on a target's internal systems

So then how would this mechanic be added to the game, while keeping the AC10 relevant? The simple answer is, just don't, and let the AC10 become a relic or do something a little different.

I had two thoughts of ways to do this. One would be to split the ammo for the gun, meaning you put in normal LBX and slug LBX shots on your mech, 15 shots per a tonne as normal. When you swap firing modes on the gun (similar to the mechanic like chain fire) you would get two different values on the ammo.

Alturnetly you could also reduce the ammo per a tonne to 10 shots (half), but both types are in there. When you change modes with this it pulls from the same tonne, ammo is used up as normal with no changes in count between the two modes.


Both are sound ideas, but the one that combines the two shots into the same tonne would be better for balancing it against the AC10. You could increase the APT of the AC10 to 20 to give it more appeal. So then the Mechwarrior has a choice, do I take the LBX with less ammo but I am able to fire two different shots, or do I take the flat AC10 that has more ammo?


The thought on the firing modes would be like you already do with chain fire, and have it bound to a button that swaps the mode. The color of the weapon on the HUD would change between normal, and green (or some other non red color lol).

[LauLiao]

Not crazy idea. You either force LBX users to fire scattershot at SOME point (Which we all know needs some work) or else carry around a huge liability in unused ammo. The real answer I think is to wait to introduce solid slug ammo for LBX until you also introduce specialized munitions for the regular AC. That way it stays relevant.

[Pater Mors]

While I agree with your idea, the devs have specifically stated different types of LBX ammo will not make it into the game (although they've said that about a few things so far). I believe that statement was in one of the ATD's but I can't find it at the moment.

[SirLANsalot]

Its been said that they might, or might no do it, but its in the far off after launch future. With this system however it just might be easier to do as it just copys many of the current systems already in place in the game. Now whether if PGI is willing to put a person on this is another story all-together.

[Pater Mors]

SirLANsalot, on 17 June 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

Its been said that they might, or might no do it, but its in the far off after launch future. With this system however it just might be easier to do as it just copys many of the current systems already in place in the game. Now whether if PGI is willing to put a person on this is another story all-together.

Hmm. I was pretty certain that they said definitely not, but I could be wrong. I hope I am wrong.

I'll have a trawl through the ATD's later and see if I can find the quote I am talking about.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Set the cluster rounds to fire one sub-munition per AC rating. An LB-2X would fire 2, an LB-10X would fire 10, etc.

Increase sub-munition damage to 1.5 each. Leave cluster spread as-is.

Add slug rounds as an alternative that will allow the LB-10X to take full advantage of its superior range profile.

Do all of these things and you'll find that the slug will be better at range and the cluster round up close, thus giving both ammo types a unique place in the game.

Of course, slugs in the LB-X ACs makes standard equivalents obsolete (much like Ultra ACs do), so PGI should add a few types of special ammo that only standard ACs can use. Armor piercing (bonus damage v armor maybe), semi-guided (lock-on with a 25-degree or so flight path deviation but lower ammo count), caseless (more ammo count but the AC gains a jam mechanic like a double-firing Ultra), etc.

[escii]

ac5 slug + scatter

[The Gunman]

I hope the Devs rectify this situation, but I'm not expecting anything any time soon, unfortunately there are much bigger things that need their attention for now...

[Corvus Antaka]

just tighten the spread another 30-50% and it'll be useful

[Shae Starfyre]

Isn't the AC10 the slug version of the LBX?

If you want Slug, why not take the AC10?

This feature suggestion doesn't make sense to me... never has. If you want spread, crit seeking finishing weapon, take the LBX, if you want slug, AC10.

That's all their is to it. Why make it complicated? WHY?

[SirLANsalot]

Aphoticus, on 20 June 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Isn't the AC10 the slug version of the LBX?

If you want Slug, why not take the AC10?

This feature suggestion doesn't make sense to me... never has. If you want spread, crit seeking finishing weapon, take the LBX, if you want slug, AC10.

That's all their is to it. Why make it complicated? WHY?

1. Read what the LBX can do.

2. Then understand that even IRL shotguns have slug rounds, hence the LBX is basically the same thing.

3. LBX is supposed to be slightly better then the AC10, as it gives you options mid fight.

[LauLiao]

SirLANsalot, on 20 June 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

1. Read what the LBX can do.

2. Then understand that even IRL shotguns have slug rounds, hence the LBX is basically the same thing.

3. LBX is supposed to be slightly better then the AC10, as it gives you options mid fight.

Also: It's cannon

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

LauLiao, on 20 June 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Also: It's cannon

Sure, every autocannon is a cannon, but I think you meant "canon" as in "true to the lore."

The LB-10X was introduced to TT originally because the AC10 was really bad (same reason they added the UAC5 - the AC5 was under-performing). The AC2 had crazy range and the AC20 could one-shot some mechs, but the 5 and 10 were just flat-out worse than comparable other weapon options.

The LB-10X added range, was a ton lighter, took up fewer critical slots, and added the cluster rounds as an alternate ammo type. These additions fixed pretty much every problem the AC10 had, and made the standard version obsolete. Similarly the UAC5 made the AC5 obsolete.

It was only after they added special ammo types that only standard ACs could fire that said standard ACs returned in a big way, because it was only then that their inefficiencies were sufficiently balanced by advantages.

If PGI wanted to fix the LB-10X without giving it slugs, though, the easy way would be to increase per-pellet damage values significantly (say, from 1 to 1.5, while keeping 10 pellets). This makes it very strong up-close and boosts its performance at longer ranges without having to tighten grouping (which would make it stronger than it should be close-in).

If PGI wanted to give the LB-10X slugs I'd be fine with it, but they'd need to add special ammo to make the AC10 (and AC5) really worth taking at all. Semi-guided rounds would help (fewer per ton and lock-on fire mode with slight tracking ability), as would Armor Piercing rounds (fewer rounds per ton, bonus damage to armor) and Caseless ammo (a lot more ammo per ton but a slight jam chance and explodes more easily).

[Strum Wealh]

Aphoticus, on 20 June 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

Isn't the AC10 the slug version of the LBX?

If you want Slug, why not take the AC10?

This feature suggestion doesn't make sense to me... never has. If you want spread, crit seeking finishing weapon, take the LBX, if you want slug, AC10.

That's all their is to it. Why make it complicated? WHY?

Traditionally, the LB-X family of autocannons are known for their ability to fire a standard high-explosive, armor-piercing (HEAP) shell as well as a shotshell-like cluster rounds (filled with a number of explosive submunitions equal to the number in the gun's designation) from the same gun - in addition to being lighter (essentially built from Endo Steel), cooler-running, longer-ranged, and very expensive.

The LB-Xs' dual ammo system mirrors that of (dual-feed/dual-tube) shotguns (to which the LB-X is consistently compared in the BattleTech source materials), as well as the ammunition systems used by real-world tanks (the LB 10-X would essentially be firing an advanced form of the M1028 canister round used in the Abrams MBT (with something more like a bomblet or grenade than a tungsten ball as the submunition) as its cluster round, and an advanced form of the M830 or M830A1 as its standard/slug round).

However, the trade-off was that the LB-X was limited only to these two types of ammunition, while the Standard ACs had access to a wider variety of special munitions, in addition to being cheaper to acquire and maintain.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 20 June 2013 - 01:55 PM.

[SirLANsalot]

Strum Wealh, on 20 June 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Traditionally, the LB-X family of autocannons are known for their ability to fire a standard high-explosive, armor-piercing (HEAP) shell as well as a shotshell-like cluster rounds (filled with a number of explosive submunitions equal to the number in the gun's designation) from the same gun - in addition to being lighter (essentially built from Endo Steel), cooler-running, longer-ranged, and very expensive.

The LB-Xs' dual ammo system mirrors that of (dual-feed/dual-tube) shotguns (to which the LB-X is consistently compared in the BattleTech source materials), as well as the ammunition systems used by real-world tanks (the LB 10-X would essentially be firing an advanced form of the M1028 canister round used in the Abrams MBT (with something more like a bomblet or grenade than a tungsten ball as the submunition) as its cluster round, and an advanced form of the M830 or M830A1 as its standard/slug round).

However, the trade-off was that the LB-X was limited only to these two types of ammunition, while the Standard ACs had access to a wider variety of special munitions, in addition to being cheaper to acquire and maintain.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

is why we need these sub rounds, would be nice to play with them some before launch and before clans. The SEPT 21st "launch" date is quickly approaching, and many many key systems are missing still (figured that date was FAR too optimistic).

[Captain Katawa]

i think everything that LBX needs is faster rate of fire to compensate scattering of damaage. and it will be viable.

[General Taskeen]

Won't fix it.

Both cluster and slugs fired at the same extended range. As in clusters could still all hit at a Mech at super range, although they were spread out.

I can already take two AC/10's and destroy things better with pinpoint damage out to 450m, although less beyond 500m, but still more damage than a stupid wide as a mountain scatter of the lb-x cluster.

All future lb-x guns will be trash and useless if the current mechanic does not change to the following:

->Scatter/Cluster round hits with all pellets at a medium sized target at 540m
*Roughly spreading pellets in a width from Center Torso to a Side Torso, while at close range the spread is concentrated to do damage in ONE spot, which ensures the full bonus damage of whatever the damage of the pellets are changed to (1.2 would be potentially 12 damage)
->Damage is buffed to 1.2 per pellet (and balanced/adjusted from there)
->Cool Down increased slightly/Regular AC's stay fast-firing

Edited by General Taskeen, 21 June 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Oppresor]

I use the LBX10 Scattershot as my primary defensive weapon, especially in FIBUA or the Tunnel in Frozen. After discussing it with the forum, it became clear that the LBX needs to be run in tandem with another weapon to fill in while it reloads. The recommendation form several of our MechWarrior's was to go with the AC2. I now run this configuration and can confirm that they were right.

For the future; I know that there is an LBX20 Scattershot and I can't wait to get it installed on my Atlas!

[SirLANsalot]

LBX has a fast enough fire rate that it can be used on its own, but it also is just slow enough to line up each shot in-between even while holding the button down. If you are really looking for a good in-between shots weapon, the ML is a great place to look. Medium Lasers are perfect backup guns for ANY mech, and even good as a mainline one too (HBK/Jenners ect).

There is just something more satisfying when killing someone with an LBX then with any other gun.

[Avimimus]

Note: If they want to keep the AC10 viable and introduce the slug for the LBX10:
- Make the LBX10 have a lower rate of fire when using slugs
- Make the velocity of the slugs slightly lower than the AC10

<- Problem solved