67 replies to this topic

[Just wanna play]

i have an idea, USE THE FRAKKIN HEAT SYSTEM THE WEAPONS WHERE INTENDED FOR!!! in TT you could not have more then 30 points of heat with out taking damage which automatically meant certain builds weren't really viable while you lost heat a lot faster so it was more rewarding to stop shooting for a quick second and dissipate heat but in this game heat sinks ADD heat capacity to the stock 30 heat capacity (all mechs start with 30 and have a minimum of 40 when the required amount of heat sinks is put in, heck a 250 engien and double hat sinsk means 50 heat capacity already allowing crazy builds) allowing 6 ppcs to be put on a stalker with out killing yourself, and they also made heat dissipation horrible in this game which doesn't make any sense and is annoying as shiat, overall the current heat system encourages high alpha energy weapons and other alpha strike builds, that and the ac20 does fire a burst of rounds....

heck in this game you can even exceed 100% heat and not take damage, must exceed 120%
their stupid heat system is the reason they need to make things like heat penalties to help stop what THEY have created

Edited by Just wanna play, 03 July 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[Koniving]

Schrottfrosch, on 18 June 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Another solution to the massive usage of huge alpha builds could be to change how huge damage weapons work:

I agree with this, and if you look at the second link of my signature I've put this idea forward (my version of it anyway) on the 22nd to gameplay balance. I opted to leave the gauss rifles alone and my suggestion for PPCs became a change that got accepted according to NGNG Podcast #79 (click community above and play. 32 minutes to 40 minutes). They're rebuilding how splash damage works and will apply it to PPCs.

By rebuilding I mean they are going to take the base damage, and divide 25% of it into "splash." So if a missile does 2.5 damage, then 0.625 goes into splash while 1.875 goes into actual damage. Now, that sounds like a major buff to SRMs versus now, but actually the impact damage is pretty close to what it is now for SRMs, with a flamer's splash to one part, or far less if it hits multiple parts.

How that applies to PPCs is apparently if it splashes to one component in addition to where it hits, it takes the base damage of 10 and puts 25% of it (2.5) into that secondary bodypart and 7.5 into the main area. If it splashes several, then it's 7.5 to the main area and the splash gets divided up equally; so say you splashed 3 body parts, it'd do "0.8333333333333333" to each.

I see that you know quite a bit more about the variants than I do, and I will tell you that PGI already has "variant" ideas in the works. The question is whether they will remove the single shot versions or keep them too. I know lore-wise they must remove the single shot AC/20, supposedly the only single shot one is 203mm and could only be mounted on certain tanks in Battletech.

[Just wanna play]

Koniving, on 04 July 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

[/size]

I agree with this, and if you look at the second link of my signature I've put this idea forward (my version of it anyway) on the 22nd to gameplay balance. I opted to leave the gauss rifles alone and my suggestion for PPCs became a change that got accepted according to NGNG Podcast #79 (click community above and play. 32 minutes to 40 minutes). They're rebuilding how splash damage works and will apply it to PPCs.

By rebuilding I mean they are going to take the base damage, and divide 25% of it into "splash." So if a missile does 2.5 damage, then 0.625 goes into splash while 1.875 goes into actual damage. Now, that sounds like a major buff to SRMs versus now, but actually the impact damage is pretty close to what it is now for SRMs, with a flamer's splash to one part, or far less if it hits multiple parts.

How that applies to PPCs is apparently if it splashes to one component in addition to where it hits, it takes the base damage of 10 and puts 25% of it (2.5) into that secondary bodypart and 7.5 into the main area. If it splashes several, then it's 7.5 to the main area and the splash gets divided up equally; so say you splashed 3 body parts, it'd do "0.8333333333333333" to each.

I see that you know quite a bit more about the variants than I do, and I will tell you that PGI already has "variant" ideas in the works. The question is whether they will remove the single shot versions or keep them too. I know lore-wise they must remove the single shot AC/20, supposedly the only single shot one is 203mm and could only be mounted on certain tanks in Battletech.

wait so isnt that nerfing srms because you will be reducing their damage to what they hit in favor of damaging whats nearby what they hit??? fk that

[Koniving]

Just wanna play, on 04 July 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

wait so isnt that nerfing srms because you will be reducing their damage to what they hit in favor of damaging whats nearby what they hit??? fk that

Right now SRMs do 1.5 damage per missile
After this change, SRMs would do 2.5 total as originally designed in MWO, but do 1.875 to the site of impact + 0.625 or some fraction of that to nearby areas. That splash would also allow you to do damage even if you miss the actual target due to the splash.

It's actually not much of a change at all, but that tiny bit per missile can be the difference between making that killing shot or not.

A splat cat is defined as an A1 Catapult with 6 SRM 6s. The numbers given below are a single alpha strike, firing all 6 SRM-6s at the same time and only once, then counting up the total damage assuming every missile hits perfectly.

Originally an A1 Splat Cat with the bugged splash damage defaulted with CryEngine could do 432 if every missile hit the target, and that's with the added splash effect only doing 12 damage per missile, PGI reported it to do as high as 18 per missile (against commandos and spiders) which is 648 if every shot hit and every shot splashes in the worst case scenario. It passed against original mechs due to their size and thus was deemed god. (Part of the Centurion's and the Trebuchet's size is due to this fact, they didn't realize just how extreme the damage was getting and bandaged it by setting the Treb and Centurion's sizes way up).

Demonstration of old SRMs Note the actual combat with the original stalker lasts 22 seconds. Aside from Penneywise's 4 medium lasers, I completely obliterated a Stalker and ALL of its body sections in 22 seconds. 2 of which I spent walking forward. This is with only 4 SRM-6s and a lot of missing missiles.


Currently an A1 Splat Cat does 54 damage if every SRM hits the target. Splash doesn't really factor much as it's only 5 cm, so virtually non-existent.

Demonstration of current SRMs. Note I am using 2 SRM-6s and 2 SRM-4s. Quick rush.

Endurance.


The proposed A1 with the splash fix I said above that Russ also mentions, would do 2.5 total damage per missile (including splash), which is the closed beta's said firepower rating of 90. The splash would subtract the 25% (0.625) from the impact site and throw it into splash damage. How the splash actually works depends on how well or how badly PGI might implement it.

It's not much of a change per missile, but it's a huge change when boated.

Edited by Koniving, 04 July 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[Just wanna play]

Koniving, on 04 July 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Right now SRMs do 1.5 damage per missile
After this change, SRMs would do 2.5 total as originally designed in MWO, but do 1.875 to the site of impact + 0.625 or some fraction of that to nearby areas. That splash would also allow you to do damage even if you miss the actual target due to the splash.

It's actually not much of a change at all, but that tiny bit per missile can be the difference between making that killing shot or not.

A splat cat is defined as an A1 Catapult with 6 SRM 6s. The numbers given below are a single alpha strike, firing all 6 SRM-6s at the same time and only once, then counting up the total damage assuming every missile hits perfectly.

Originally an A1 Splat Cat with the bugged splash damage defaulted with CryEngine could do 432 if every missile hit the target, and that's with the added splash effect only doing 12 damage per missile, PGI reported it to do as high as 18 per missile (against commandos and spiders) which is 648 if every shot hit and every shot splashes in the worst case scenario. It passed against original mechs due to their size and thus was deemed god. (Part of the Centurion's and the Trebuchet's size is due to this fact, they didn't realize just how extreme the damage was getting and bandaged it by setting the Treb and Centurion's sizes way up).

Demonstration of old SRMs Note the actual combat with the original stalker lasts 22 seconds. Aside from Penneywise's 4 medium lasers, I completely obliterated a Stalker and ALL of its body sections in 22 seconds. 2 of which I spent walking forward. This is with only 4 SRM-6s and a lot of missing missiles.


Currently an A1 Splat Cat does 54 damage if every SRM hits the target. Splash doesn't really factor much as it's only 5 cm, so virtually non-existent.

Demonstration of current SRMs. Note I am using 2 SRM-6s and 2 SRM-4s. Quick rush.

Endurance.


The proposed A1 with the splash fix I said above that Russ also mentions, would do 2.5 total damage per missile (including splash), which is the closed beta's said firepower rating of 90. The splash would subtract the 25% (0.625) from the impact site and throw it into splash damage. How the splash actually works depends on how well or how badly PGI might implement it.

It's not much of a change per missile, but it's a huge change when boated.

i still dont understand the point >.< people are saying srms are weak so why are you proposing a way to make it do damage against things you weren't aiming for? no one wants or cares about splash on them just want more punch to them, really just helping those with bad aim or those that fire enough for the slight boost to make a difference

also will display more damage done per kill since 25% gets wasted on some random limb


are you trying to nerf a build thats already nerfed?? i guess the splash idea works with ppcs that are currently overused but not srms that needs boosting not random changes in mechanics

Edited by Just wanna play, 05 July 2013 - 09:44 AM.

[Koniving]

Just wanna play, on 05 July 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

also will display more damage done per kill since 25% gets wasted on some random limb

are you trying to nerf a build thats already nerfed?? i guess the splash idea works with ppcs that are currently overused but not srms that needs boosting not random changes in mechanics

Sigh.

Do you not understand the difference between 54 damage (current) and 90? That's 46 damage of buffing. 90 damage alpha strike for 18 tons, versus the current 54 for 18 tons, versus 60 for 6 PPCs at 42 tons, or the twin Gauss build at 30 damage for 30 tons, or the AC/40 build for 28 tons. How much more of a buff do you want? If you don't count the splash it's 64.8 damage. That's a 10.8 damage BUFF. There's no nerf. That's STILL a buff.

They wouldn't be missiles if they didn't explode; they'd be LB-6s. What would be the point?

More than 50% of all SR missiles fired ~will~ miss. This makes use of even them.

Have you used them? If not, try it. If you take the fact that they do explode, and utilizing splash, you can hit things that would otherwise be impossible to hit by slamming the missiles into the ground.

Bring a Centurion with 3 of them, or pack 4 to 6 on a Catapult, anything fast enough to bring those missiles to an enemy's face.

Also, get your head out of the ground while you're at it and learn counting.

Besides that they tried removing splash completely, SRMs suddenly behaved like bullets and did no damage at all. It's a hard-coded thing into CryEngine.

[Just wanna play]

Koniving, on 05 July 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Sigh.

Do you not understand the difference between 54 damage (current) and 90? That's 46 damage of buffing. 90 damage alpha strike for 18 tons, versus the current 54 for 18 tons, versus 60 for 6 PPCs at 42 tons, or the twin Gauss build at 30 damage for 30 tons, or the AC/40 build for 28 tons. How much more of a buff do you want? If you don't count the splash it's 64.8 damage. That's a 10.8 damage BUFF. There's no nerf. That's STILL a buff.

They wouldn't be missiles if they didn't explode; they'd be LB-6s. What would be the point?

More than 50% of all SR missiles fired ~will~ miss. This makes use of even them.

Have you used them? If not, try it. If you take the fact that they do explode, and utilizing splash, you can hit things that would otherwise be impossible to hit by slamming the missiles into the ground.

Bring a Centurion with 3 of them, or pack 4 to 6 on a Catapult, anything fast enough to bring those missiles to an enemy's face.

Also, get your head out of the ground while you're at it and learn counting.

Besides that they tried removing splash completely, SRMs suddenly behaved like bullets and did no damage at all. It's a hard-coded thing into CryEngine.

of course i use srms, srm6s are my second most used weapon in the game beside the medium and the other srms arent far behind

i dont care about the extra damage if it only helps dumb luck and not when i need it most, lets take my atlas, you will give it an ASTONISHING 6 damage boost!! wow thats the most useful thing iv ever heard! but its okay you can still say we "boosted" the damage because it says its really increasing it by 10 damage!! wow how amazing
if you need at least 3 to understand how useful the boost is its not a very good boost

that difference between 54 damage and 90 is only on srm boats which is clearly what you want boosted, but what about the non-boats that wont be effected by the weapon boating nerf (they did say missile heat penalty is planed as well)???
ohh so your going to make the mechs that really shouldn't be the strongest because of an extra missile hard point the strongest again (ex ddc atlas, most powerful weapons AND ecm, what else do you want to give it?? then things like yen lo wang will loss respect since you boosted the weapons it doesn't have)

and you cant use damage to tonnage to compare missile weapons to ballistics, they are complete opposites in that aspect (and in many others)

lots of points in an "lb6" considering far less weight at the cost of range

all i see your proposed boost doing is helping those with lots of dumb luck increasing how much damage you do before killing something and making an ammo explosion from srms far more dangerous (also will hurt your salvage bonus)

and why do i need to learn how to count??? i didn't even do any math in that post

[Just wanna play]

btw it shows in public gamers best thread what is really wrong with missile damage and really why you shouldn't try and increase it, its not even doing whats its stated to do because they are multi-hit weapons, i have said in another thread they shouldn't change any weapons until the hit detection is fixed

[Koniving]

Regardless, you're distracting people from the positive points of this topic in order to debate missile damage, favoring having your missiles nerfed over a buff because you see the buff as a nerf.

[Just wanna play]

Koniving, on 05 July 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Regardless, you're distracting people from the positive points of this topic in order to debate missile damage, favoring having your missiles nerfed over a buff because you see the buff as a nerf.

NO!!! i understand its a buff now when i first read "25% damage as splash" i though you meant 25% of its current firepower (i saw "so if missile did 2.5" and thought it was an example to show the change compared to previous srms and didnt think you meant thats how you meant it to be, thinking you meant this as a nerf to the og splat cat i said "are you trying to nerf a build thats already nerfed??" ) and so thought you where just saying make them less pin point with therir current damage like what you said with ppcs (which i think IS a good thing to do) and didn't understand why you wanted that for srms, this discussion kind of started off with a bit of a misunderstanding on both sides it seems (maybe on one side more then the other ) although the line "It's not much of a change per missile, but it's a huge change when boated." does make your reasoning a bit odd sounding as if you just want to boat them again and it WAS you saying that so it would make sense why you would want srm boosting for boating

is all forgiven?

and just saying its not like a lack of splash doesnt mean they explode, the damage is done by explosive even if is not from splash,they have shaped charges in modern missiles after all

Edited by Just wanna play, 05 July 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Koniving]

*Face-palms.* Yes. Anyway... Saddened this thread hasn't received more attention I've been pumping it out there. Especially Scrott's picture which links anyone who checks back to here.

[kesuga7]

just as long as it gives me more (or the appearance of it) dakka i agree

also very nice Photoshop in first post

Edited by kesuga7, 05 July 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[Just wanna play]

Koniving, on 05 July 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

*Face-palms.*

[Terror Teddy]

Yes, I would LOVE to have a variety of weapons within each cathegory.

You could also do the same with the energy weapons and missiles.

LRM variant: Afterburn
+20% missile speed
-20% Damage

LRM variant: Quicklock
-20% damage
+20% locking Speed

SRM cariant: Boomer
+20% Damage
+20% Spread

Medium Laser: Blitzer
-20% Duration Time
+20% Heat

[Koniving]

Gaan Cathal, on 01 July 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

It's entirely possible to have canonical multi-round ACs without turning them into lasers in practice. Currently a laser spreads damage evenly over a beam duration, during which it's manually kept on target. Give ACs a (very) short burstfire mechanism with a minor degree of recoil. Have the recoil pattern predictable (and thus mitigatable with skill) but dependant on weapon location. Therefore if, say, arm-mounted ACs track upwards and outwards it forces a degree of damage spread away from the initial aim point, making it increasingly difficult to land all the rounds on a single compartment with number of hardpoint locations utilised (note this wouldn't limit weapons in the same location).

PPCs would need something else to stop them being lasers, someone posted a suggestion a while ago of having five damage in the bolt and five in the 'tail' to spread damage on moving/defensive twisting targets while maintaining full lethality on in-line hits, which I quite like.

As for the Gauss? Honestly think it's fine as is. They're big, explode if you sneeze on them and the ammo capacity is pathetic. Things like the Annihilator may be a problem when they arrive, but that's (hopefully) a ways off. Oh, and give it it's minimum range. Notabrawlingweapon ™.

May have been that person -- the 5 and 5 for PPCs. Russ announced the plan is actually to use 7 damage with 3 damage in the "splash" to spread. NGNG podcast 79: 32 mins to 40 mins.

Gauss rifle, I wish they would give it the min range but Bryan says it doesn't make sense, so, yeah. I'd still like variants though, possibly make variants that sling out multiple slugs to get the damage a bit more "stable" and less prone to exploding than the powerful yet unstable single slug version?

As for the autocannons I had envisioned the Super Crusher Heavy Autocannon to fire its 10 shots within a 1 to 2 second burst. Below I prepared a macro for testing the SCH AC/20 using a 6 AC/2 JM6-DD, each preset to different timings. One for a 2 second burst of 10 shots with a 4 second wait. Another for a 3 second burst, and finally Scrott's 3.5 second burst.

Tell me what you think!

Koniving, on 04 July 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

With these weapon variants, however, we really wouldn't need a cone of fire. The only real variable to throw in would be recoil.

I calculated a macro for a JM6-DD with 6 AC/2s to estimate how a Super Crusher Heavy AutoCannon AC/20 would work in MWO with 2.0, 3.0, and 3.5 second burst durations for 10 "2 damage" shots. To do it for the 1.0 burst duration turn the sleep to "100" for each line. These macros are for AutoHotkey and contain the AC/20's 4 second cooldown, too. Try it.

2.0 delay per my original "high point" of how this might work. Set 6 AC/2s for one cannon per weapon group, filling out 1 through 6.

Spoiler

#SingleInstance Force
#InstallMouseHook
#InstallKeyBDHook

#IfWinActive ahk_class CryENGINE
Q::
while GetKeyState("Q","P")

{
send {1 down}
sleep 200
send {1 up}
send {2 down}
sleep 200
send {2 up}
send {3 down}
sleep 200
send {3 up}
send {4 down}
sleep 200
send {4 up}
send {5 down}
sleep 200
send {5 up}
send {6 down}
sleep 200
send {6 up}
send {1 down}
sleep 200
send {1 up}
send {2 down}
sleep 200
send {2 up}
send {3 down}
sleep 200
send {3 up}
send {4 down}
sleep 200
send {4 up}
sleep 4000
}

3.0 delay. Set 6 AC/2s for one cannon per weapon group, filling out 1 through 6.

Spoiler

#SingleInstance Force
#InstallMouseHook
#InstallKeyBDHook

#IfWinActive ahk_class CryENGINE
Q::
while GetKeyState("Q","P")

{
send {1 down}
sleep 300
send {1 up}
send {2 down}
sleep 300
send {2 up}
send {3 down}
sleep 300
send {3 up}
send {4 down}
sleep 300
send {4 up}
send {5 down}
sleep 300
send {5 up}
send {6 down}
sleep 300
send {6 up}
send {1 down}
sleep 300
send {1 up}
send {2 down}
sleep 300
send {2 up}
send {3 down}
sleep 300
send {3 up}
send {4 down}
sleep 300
send {4 up}
sleep 4000
}

3.5 delay proposed by Scrot in the screenshot found here. Set 6 AC/2s for one cannon per weapon group, filling out 1 through 6.

Spoiler

#SingleInstance Force
#InstallMouseHook
#InstallKeyBDHook

#IfWinActive ahk_class CryENGINE
Q::
while GetKeyState("Q","P")

{
send {1 down}
sleep 350
send {1 up}
send {2 down}
sleep 350
send {2 up}
send {3 down}
sleep 350
send {3 up}
send {4 down}
sleep 350
send {4 up}
send {5 down}
sleep 350
send {5 up}
send {6 down}
sleep 350
send {6 up}
send {1 down}
sleep 350
send {1 up}
send {2 down}
sleep 350
send {2 up}
send {3 down}
sleep 350
send {3 up}
send {4 down}
sleep 350
send {4 up}
sleep 4000
}

These macros are triggered when you press Q.
What do you think?

[Karl Streiger]

Koniving, on 06 July 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Gauss rifle, I wish they would give it the min range but Bryan says it doesn't make sense, so, yeah.

Afaik - GaussRifles are only useable when used ferromagnetic objects... firing a depleded uranium or tungsten arrow will not work.
So if you make some lore smithing and modifiying - the GaussRifle fires a discarding sabot projectile with a sabbot of nickel or iron - unitl minimum range it is highly possible that the full projcetile hit - spreading the damage at 3 hit zones instead of a single one - or having because of the greater diameter of the projectile less penetration ability. -
as said - not reallistic - not even good lore crafting - but maybe a explanation

Edited by Karl Streiger, 08 July 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[Lord of All]

El Bandito, on 18 June 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

I voted yes, because Autocannons in MW universe are fired in bursts like machineguns, not a single shell like some medieval cannon.

I also agree with your PPC change.

However, we still need to address pin point long distance convergence if you want more Battletech feel.

Here is a very easy to implement convergence Idea that could be coded in an hour.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Koniving]

Schrottfrosch, on 18 June 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

With the macro included here I tried out a JM6-DD with 6 AC/2s to pull off the AC/20 Super Crusher Heavy Autocannon variant. 3.5, too long. 3, too long. 2, too long (these are all longer than any laser). 1 second long feels just right. Here's the macro.

Spoiler

#z::Run www.autohotkey.com

^!n::
IfWinExist Untitled - Notepad
WinActivate
else
Run Notepad
return


; Note: From now on whenever you run AutoHotkey directly, this script
; will be loaded. So feel free to customize it to suit your needs.

; Please read the QUICK-START TUTORIAL near the top of the help file.
; It explains how to perform common automation tasks such as sending
; keystrokes and mouse clicks. It also explains more about hotkeys.

#SingleInstance Force
#InstallMouseHook
#InstallKeyBDHook

#IfWinActive ahk_class CryENGINE
Q::
while GetKeyState("Q","P")

{
send {1 down}
sleep 100
send {1 up}
send {2 down}
sleep 100
send {2 up}
send {3 down}
sleep 100
send {3 up}
send {4 down}
sleep 100
send {4 up}
send {5 down}
sleep 100
send {5 up}
send {6 down}
sleep 100
send {6 up}
send {1 down}
sleep 100
send {1 up}
send {2 down}
sleep 100
send {2 up}
send {3 down}
sleep 100
send {3 up}
send {4 down}
sleep 100
send {4 up}
sleep 4000
}

Fires on Q. I liked this alot.

[Just wanna play]

Koniving, on 10 July 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

[/size]

With the macro included here I tried out a JM6-DD with 6 AC/2s to pull off the AC/20 Super Crusher Heavy Autocannon variant. 3.5, too long. 3, too long. 2, too long (these are all longer than any laser). 1 second long feels just right. Here's the macro.

Spoiler

#z::Run www.autohotkey.com

^!n::
IfWinExist Untitled - Notepad
WinActivate
else
Run Notepad
return


; Note: From now on whenever you run AutoHotkey directly, this script
; will be loaded. So feel free to customize it to suit your needs.

; Please read the QUICK-START TUTORIAL near the top of the help file.
; It explains how to perform common automation tasks such as sending
; keystrokes and mouse clicks. It also explains more about hotkeys.

#SingleInstance Force
#InstallMouseHook
#InstallKeyBDHook

#IfWinActive ahk_class CryENGINE
Q::
while GetKeyState("Q","P")

{
send {1 down}
sleep 100
send {1 up}
send {2 down}
sleep 100
send {2 up}
send {3 down}
sleep 100
send {3 up}
send {4 down}
sleep 100
send {4 up}
send {5 down}
sleep 100
send {5 up}
send {6 down}
sleep 100
send {6 up}
send {1 down}
sleep 100
send {1 up}
send {2 down}
sleep 100
send {2 up}
send {3 down}
sleep 100
send {3 up}
send {4 down}
sleep 100
send {4 up}
sleep 4000
}

Fires on Q. I liked this alot.

wait so if the bigger the auto cannon simply the longer the burst of bullets (but all acs shoot same sized bullets doing same damage each) why do ac20 also have a bigger barrel if it fires multiple small bullets

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Just wanna play, on 11 July 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

wait so if the bigger the auto cannon simply the longer the burst of bullets (but all acs shoot same sized bullets doing same damage each) why do ac20 also have a bigger barrel if it fires multiple small bullets

Partly how they were done for MWO.

Here is a Hunchback 5M (basically an upgraded 4G) from Sarna with an AC/20

Spoiler

And here is a Hunchback IIC with Ultra AC/20, note how the cannons look.

Spoiler