112 replies to this topic

[Atma Erebus]

CravenMadness, on 18 June 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

"It's still stupid, what are you gonna do?" Mostly? Die, while the r-tards that rock that cheese get their chuckles.

Do what I should have done months ago: don't log in until you see meaningful changes to things that actually matter instead of fluff that nerfs things that don't need it and mech releases that pander to PPC boat enthusiasts. Right now all design decisions are pointing toward there being one real weapon at launch. If you happen to enjoy that weapon, great. If you don't, why are you still playing? I asked myself that when I read the patch notes today and have since not even bothered installing the patch.

There is good news though! The steam summer sale is just around the corner. I'm going to get myself three new games that actually care about gameplay balance for the price of one Miserable PPC boat hero mech.

[Panzerkampfwagen IV]

Am I the only one that realizes that ac40 jaegers require xl engines and therefore are extremely easy to kill?

sure, you can run a standard too but then they are slow and easy to kite with horrible turning speed....

ac40 is a valid and viable tactic with a valid and viable counterplay, if you can't do it, blame your own lack of skill or situational awareness.

why are people crying about this?


honestly, I feel the game would be in a very good place balance wise if they increased ppc heat by 30%, implemented damage due to overheating and gave srms a very slight damage boost YMMV

[Gaan Cathal]

Duck Butter, on 18 June 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Am I the only one that realizes that ac40 jaegers require xl engines and therefore are extremely easy to kill?

sure, you can run a standard too but then they are slow and easy to kite with horrible turning speed....

ac40 is a valid and viable tactic with a valid and viable counterplay, if you can't do it, blame your own lack of skill or situational awareness.

why are people crying about this?


honestly, I feel the game would be in a very good place balance wise if they increased ppc heat by 30%, implemented damage due to overheating and gave srms a very slight damage boost YMMV

I honestly have no idea why the AC/40 Jaeger is so rage-inducing. People didn't care this much about the Boomcat and that was only marginally inferior. It'd be better if damage drop off was exponential, but that's a whole game improvement, not just an AC/40 thing. It's a close-ranged glass cannon. The problem with the mass-alpha builds isn't the actual mass-alpha, it's the ultra-pinpoint damage and the excessively low skill floor associated with them.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

i know this might be a difficult concept for some of you to master, but the head only has 18 points of armor. If someone is close enough to you where things like srm's and ac/20's are a problem, they're very vulnerable as well.


of course if you run dual gauss you'll never have this problem because everything will be dead before it reaches you.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 19 June 2013 - 01:37 AM.

[Blackadder]

The sooner you guys realize that the game revolves around alpha striking with large energy and ballistic weapons the happier you will be. it does not matter if ppcs get a 50% damage nerf next patch, people will just revert back to LL for primary energy weapons. PGI has created this mess, and the game has always been imbalanced to favor specific weapons systems, its just that the systems have changed from time to time.

So your options are either run a medium mech, that cant be a brawler because it cant take the damage to get close, run a light mech in a 4 man lance and pick off isolated groups and cap to win, or join the unwashed masses and run a heavy or assault with a high alpha strike potential.

Running an optimal build is not running cheese, its facing the reality of what the developer has done to the game. All you have to do is look at the last patch changes to the LPL to see how out of touch they are. Large weapon alpha striking will remain as long as pgi fails to put in controls for the situation, or improves the short range weapons systems enough to make them a viable option again, at which point everyone running the PPC alpha boats, will just shift to the SRM boat or ML/PL boat.

Its what the game is, even if it is not very enjoyable at times.

[Zuesacoatl]

Honestly, I do not like poptarts, but the use of them is a skill and tactic. Just because you did not subscribe to it, or maybe sucked which is probably the bigger case for most who complain about them, does not mean they needed to be nerfed. Adapt, I did, I found ways to get around them and bring what ever build I was using against them. Or sniped them, it was easy, as you see their head crest, you pull the trigger, even some were easier cause it was like they counted after they hit dirt every time and came up right on queue so you were nailing them every time. I hate FoTM mechs, but they are a viable build none the less. Though i hate the elitist tag line of adapt or die, sometimes it just fits.

[Soy]

Poptarting is more enjoyable than turretting, no question, but that's only my humble opinion, which is mostly due to the fact that I didn't take an arrowPPC to the knee like some others around here.

Edited by Soy, 19 June 2013 - 03:50 AM.

[tenderloving]

Zuesacoatl, on 19 June 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

Honestly, I do not like poptarts, but the use of them is a skill and tactic. Just because you did not subscribe to it, or maybe sucked which is probably the bigger case for most who complain about them, does not mean they needed to be nerfed. Adapt, I did, I found ways to get around them and bring what ever build I was using against them. Or sniped them, it was easy, as you see their head crest, you pull the trigger, even some were easier cause it was like they counted after they hit dirt every time and came up right on queue so you were nailing them every time. I hate FoTM mechs, but they are a viable build none the less. Though i hate the elitist tag line of adapt or die, sometimes it just fits.

If you were able to adapt to the game with them, you can adapt to the game without them. For the advanced gamer such as yourself, it should make no differences what changes they make because you can adapt.

[topgun505]

Things I have observed in my games (4-man and 8-man matches) last night post-patch:

I saw pretty much nobody using LRMs

PPC Stalkers are still out in force. I ran in to one team last night that had SEVEN Stalkers and 1 light. And I will give you 3 guesses what their weapon loadout was and the first two guesses don't count.

Its pretty safe to say that the PPC nerf (if indeed any nerf for them even was implemented) has not has ANY impact.

Edited by topgun505, 19 June 2013 - 04:43 AM.

[Kaldor]

Dont like the current meta game? Blame PGI. The ball is completely in their court right now.

Dont like the long range meta, blame PGI that they have not fixed it. This is what happens when you gut SRMs which hurt brawlers badly, reduced heat on PPCs, and refuse to make viable fixes to the heat system to prevent massive boating of heavy energy weapons.

Myself, I will continue to play my 732 with 3 PPC, 1 gauss, and continue to eat the noobs. I see a 40 Jag, and think "snack" as I slam a pair of 45 point alphas into his side torso while poptarting.

[Sprouticus]

Raso, on 18 June 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Yes, because it's not like there aren't other factors to consider.

Poptarting was helping to the the AC40 Jagers at bay with their lul snipings. You could still still roll with an AC40 Jager but you had to THINK to use it. Now jump sniping requires far more skill and tactical considerations so you still see them but not as many. And LRMs have always been around, even when they were nerfed. They're back but they are not in force.

Basically, the potards were keeping the Jagerbombs in check and now with the reign of jump sniping at a close we are still left with the problem of the high alpha meta with very few reasons to use anything other than an AC40 Jager as a brawler unless you're the kind of player who likes range in which case a few ERPPCs and Gauss or AC20 on a Highlander, Atlas, Cataphract, or even Dragon work well for both hillhumping and in your face pin point damage.

The game balance was not fixed, it was simply altered.

Game balance is never 'fixed'. There is always someone who prefers weapons system X vs weapon system Y and will complain.


And I totally agree that high alpha weapons systems are an issue. Whether that be 4 PPC stalkers or 2 AC20 jaggers.


However, to say that the current balance is not better than it was before the JJ fix is just wrong. More weapons systems ARE viable. I don't feel like I HAVE to bring PPC/Gauss to compete. Sure I might be at a slight disadvantage with a mixed weapons, but it is certainly not as severe as it was. LRM's are definitely viable, especially in pug games

The 8-man team meta is a completely different story, but that will always be uber min/maxing, and until we get really solid balance to the point where tactics are the primary motivator for weapons load out, it will remain that way. We need to worry about pug balance first.


I am waiting for the heat penalties to be implemented for testing. Once those are in (especially if they make the max un-penalized AC20 = 1) we will see how the rest of the meta changes.If it has minimal impact as some people think, then I will expect more balance work to be done. (hopefully faster with the test server coming online)

[Zuesacoatl]

tenderloving, on 19 June 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

If you were able to adapt to the game with them, you can adapt to the game without them. For the advanced gamer such as yourself, it should make no differences what changes they make because you can adapt.

But after you take everything out that people complain about, what do you have left? PGI should not bow to the whiners, they are but a very very very small percentage of gamers in MWO. Hell, the most vocal on these forums probably do not even match what 5% of MWO players truly wish or want. Sure I can adapt without them, but having them added more to the game, without them, all you have is more of the same, with no extra pizzaz. And those that hated the poptarts are going to hate the next build just because, for the most part, the lack of skill prohibits them from being able to deal with a new level of fun in the game.

I am not an elitist, not by a long shot, I suck lol, but now that we just lost a tactic on the field, the game feels like it lost a part of the fun it held. I would rather learn to beat a tactic, then win by nerf. Most people who like to feel accomplished with what they do in and out of this game agree. But this is the age of instant grad, and everyone gets a medal, there are no second placers...so i guess all I can do is digress, and let all ye whiners ruin a great game.

[Kaldor]

Sprouticus, on 19 June 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

Game balance is never 'fixed'. There is always someone who prefers weapons system X vs weapon system Y and will complain.


And I totally agree that high alpha weapons systems are an issue. Whether that be 4 PPC stalkers or 2 AC20 jaggers.


However, to say that the current balance is not better than it was before the JJ fix is just wrong. More weapons systems ARE viable. I don't feel like I HAVE to bring PPC/Gauss to compete. Sure I might be at a slight disadvantage with a mixed weapons, but it is certainly not as severe as it was. LRM's are definitely viable, especially in pug games

The 8-man team meta is a completely different story, but that will always be uber min/maxing, and until we get really solid balance to the point where tactics are the primary motivator for weapons load out, it will remain that way. We need to worry about pug balance first.


I am waiting for the heat penalties to be implemented for testing. Once those are in (especially if they make the max un-penalized AC20 = 1) we will see how the rest of the meta changes.If it has minimal impact as some people think, then I will expect more balance work to be done. (hopefully faster with the test server coming online)

Yes, you can run a mixed build. I do it all the time, however the game rewards accurate long range shooting right now, so I will run that. When brawling is viable again, Ill jump in an Atlas again, and go tear it up on that. However, the one major thing that is killing the game right now is the fact the only real viable brawling build is a pair of AC20s mounted on a Jager. SRMs are trash, and until they are fixed, brawling will not be viable.

And if you are relying on PGI to get the heat penalty correct, youre going to be waiting awhile. Fix the underlying mechanic, instead of balancing on a weapon to weapon basis. They will never get anywhere like that.

[keith]

pgi has no foresight. as soon as we say the patch notes for jj shake, we knew stalkers were back. they were what was in before highlanders. they were handled because of srms, srms hit like a feathers now. idk y they can't add a tonnage max to drops or to lances would fix most problems. then see if ppc is still main wep around.

[MaddMaxx]

FupDup, on 18 June 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

I was intending to disagree with your previous post.

The meaning that I gleaned from it (not necessarily the one you intended) is that you don't think the game is imbalanced because people can just "adapt" around it. My own belief about that is that the game is very imbalanced at the moment because the majority of players only adhere to a few specific play styles--most notably ERPPC/Gauss snipers. They're not invincible by any means, but it's just kind of annoying and boring to face the same thing over and over again. Adapting to the overabundance of those snipers (or other FoTM builds) doesn't make the problem of stale gameplay (due to a lack of variety) go away.

So what we can note is that the Players have access to Mechs in the Heavy and Assault Class. They also have access to the top tier in damage weapons. So the inevitable result is those same players combine the 2 and Bingo, you get Heavy and Assault Mechs with multiple combinations of the top tier damage weapons.

I can fix that for you easy. Remove the Mechs that can sport both erPPC and Gauss Rifles, or remove those high damage weapons.

Or would you prefer they neuter the Mechs or the damage profiles of those weapons?

P.S. The Gauss Rifle has negligible heat btw. Raising it 8 points, "to bring it line", ain't gonna fly...

[MaddMaxx]

Viktor Drake, on 18 June 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

I have to admit I find the game totally dumbed down now and one dimenional since they introduced shake at least for JJ equiped mechs.

snip

So you never played MW:LL then. Word on the Forum was that game, which was apparently better that MWO, (cough BS cough) had it. It was "the" go to best solution eva and even worked the charm. Film was provided even.

Apparently, those Players were all wrong? I am just asking.

[MaddMaxx]

Kaldor, on 19 June 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Yes, you can run a mixed build. I do it all the time, however the game rewards accurate long range shooting right now, so I will run that. When brawling is viable again, Ill jump in an Atlas again, and go tear it up on that. However, the one major thing that is killing the game right now is the fact the only real viable brawling build is a pair of AC20s mounted on a Jager. SRMs are trash, and until they are fixed, brawling will not be viable.

And if you are relying on PGI to get the heat penalty correct, youre going to be waiting awhile. Fix the underlying mechanic, instead of balancing on a weapon to weapon basis. They will never get anywhere like that.

Just gotta ask.

How is a more potent SRM going to "fix" the supposed OP AC40 boat?

Both have the same long (270) but the AC40 can damage your sorry SRM based arse from >=500m. The SRM (even the A1 Boat), with its built in spread, will have very little chance, head to head. against the AC40, even @2.5 (2.5 is not gonna happen btw)

[Sprouticus]

MaddMaxx, on 19 June 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Just gotta ask.

How is a more potent SRM going to "fix" the supposed OP AC40 boat?

Both have the same long (270) but the AC40 can damage your sorry SRM based arse from >=500m. The SRM (even the A1 Boat), with its built in spread, will have very little chance, head to head. against the AC40, even @2.5 (2.5 is not gonna happen btw)

In the end a lot of the balance issues boils down to PG refusing to acknowledge that hardpoints need size limits. I am not sure WHY they think that, but they do. Many of the more reasonable people on the forums have been saying this forever. I actually suggested it PRIOR to beta, when we were speculating on how hardpoints would work. (not bragging, just saying the idea is kind of obvious if you played MW2/3 and then played MW4

But PGI won't do this so they are using other balancing methods. I disagree with their decision, but I have to live with it so Ill move on and try to suggest other way I think it can be (hopefully) fixed. Heat changes are one of those ways.

[Kaldor]

MaddMaxx, on 19 June 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Just gotta ask.

How is a more potent SRM going to "fix" the supposed OP AC40 boat?

Both have the same long (270) but the AC40 can damage your sorry SRM based arse from >=500m. The SRM (even the A1 Boat), with its built in spread, will have very little chance, head to head. against the AC40, even @2.5 (2.5 is not gonna happen btw)

I allows brawlers such as faster mediums enough of a punch to kill them without having to take too long. The only viable medium right now other than a Cicada (speed) is a Hunchy 4P as they hit hard enough and are fast enough to drop in behind a mech and yell "surprise" with 9 MLs.

When is the last time you seen a true brawler Atlas? An Atlas could one shot a Jager in the side torso with a single volley pre SRM nerf. I had no issues killing AC40 Cats when all the cool kids ran them with my DDC, D, or RS. Yes, I may take a volley, but they are easily killed. People are also smart enough to recognize the build and focus fire. Now instead of killing them with a brawler with an Atlas with an 83/78 point alpha, or my Cent with a 55 point alpha, or my Hunchy SP with a 50 point alpha, I use my 732 and kill them at 300-400m with 45 point alphas where they are much less of a threat.

40 Jagers are more of a threat when PUGging anyway. When playing with friends, we instantly kill the 40 Jager, instead of letting them cherry pick. It makes them angry and I enjoy them getting b_tth_rt and trying to insult us in chat, then rage logging the match.

I think SRMs will be returned to at least 2, if not 2.5 The big reason they were so devastating was due to the fact damage was spreading around/bouncing. With that gone, there is no reason not to have them there. Their success also hinges on whether or not PGI can bring large weapon damage and heat into line.

Paper is better than rock, but he needs to fear scissors.

Edited by Kaldor, 19 June 2013 - 06:02 AM.

[Soy]

MaddMaxx, on 19 June 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

So you never played MW:LL then. Word on the Forum was that game, which was apparently better that MWO, (cough BS cough) had it. It was "the" go to best solution eva and even worked the charm. Film was provided even.

Apparently, those Players were all wrong? I am just asking.

Lol I love this prose bro