29 replies to this topic

[armyof1]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 20 June 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

If you have a hard time finding a way to fire an extra weapon trigger when that weapon is a lock-on missile system that aims with the arm weapons, then you have deeper problems with playing this game. Just assign a thumb button (if you have one) or an easy-to-reach keyboard button (3, for instance, is right next to W and E and very easy to reach with your steering hand).

Also, a single SSRM launcher can be enough to discourage a light from coming after you. Especially if you have a hard time hitting it with other weapons, that slow and steady CT damage can scare off a lot of light pilots.

Finally, BAP is mostly necessary if you want to use SSRMs as your main punch, since not having it will negate a large chunk of your firepower should you encounter ECM. Still, BAP has other uses too (extended sensor range can be quite handy), and the Quickdraw with only one missile hard point should have tonnage to spare if you're boating MLs.

A single SSRM2 and a ton of ammo that will be totally worthless on ECM mechs is pointless to carry around. Those 2.5 tons would be much better used as more armor, a ML or two or some DHS. To keep track on the cooldown of an extra weapon group when it's a measly single SSRM2 is a waste of effort. You are not being a better player just by having more weapon groups you know. And really if you have problems hitting a light with your other weapons, that single SSRM2 isn't going to scare off him off unless he's totally clueless in the first place.

Edited by armyof1, 20 June 2013 - 05:42 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

armyof1, on 20 June 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

A single SSRM2 and a ton of ammo that will be totally worthless on ECM mechs is pointless to carry around. Those 2.5 tons would be much better used as more armor, a ML or two or some DHS. To keep track on the cooldown of an extra weapon group when it's a measly single SSRM2 is a waste of effort. You are not being a better player just by having more weapon groups you know. And really if you have problems hitting a light with your other weapons, that single SSRM2 isn't going to scare off him off unless he's totally clueless in the first place.

Don't assume that because somebody is offering advice about something that said person is trying to cover up his own failings. I do just fine shooting lights with other weapons. It remains a fact that many players do not, and SSRMs are a good way for said players to compensate. If you are not one of those players than good for you, but given your apparent lack of ability to handle more than two weapon groups I admit I made an assumption about your level of skill.

If you aren't running full armor already on your ML Quickdraw then you certainly should be looking at your build. ML are very efficient weapons, and it should not require any meaningful sacrifices to fit a mere six on your mech. If a Jenner can do it, something nearly twice as big should be able to do it more effectively.

Here's a STD 300 Quickdraw build with a SSRM2 and a ton of ammo. Full armor, full jump jets, full ML, and plenty of heat sinks.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b8a7dcfba2f2c13

Or, you could go with an XL 360. Once again, full armor, full jump jets, full ML, plenty of heat sinks, and adds a BAP.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2d5d1bd307cb0d9

It's trivially easy to fit one, and it adds a bit of reliable close-in damage. Assuming you have your arm lasers on one trigger, your torso lasers on another, and your SSRM on a third, that's three triggers. If you can't keep track of three sets of weapons you might consider practicing a bit more.

If you decide that a SSRM2 is not for you, then so be it. An SRM4 is half a ton heavier and twice the missiles, though it's harder to aim, and it just happens to have the same number of missiles as the Quickdraw has CT missile ports. Alternatively, leave the hard point empty and just put in more/bigger lasers.

Regardless, if you need to learn to tailor your build to your mech. Certain missile hard points are better for certain kinds of missiles (NARC pods are great for SSRMs, for instance). It's a great way to balance missile hard points, and it adds a lot of flavor to variants that otherwise might well end up looking pretty much the same (the Atlas missile pods, for instance).

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 20 June 2013 - 08:21 PM.

[Deathlike]

I've only bothered to make the Quickdraw-4H an SRM platform... and it's doing OK (but not great, due to bad HSR/hitreg). It's doable.. but I did not expect this mech to be a serious LRM platform, so personally, it made no difference to me.

Besides... making it a Streak platform is terrible... it's kinda a negative for me.

[armyof1]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 20 June 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

Don't assume that because somebody is offering advice about something that said person is trying to cover up his own failings. I do just fine shooting lights with other weapons. It remains a fact that many players do not, and SSRMs are a good way for said players to compensate. If you are not one of those players than good for you, but given your apparent lack of ability to handle more than two weapon groups I admit I made an assumption about your level of skill.

If you aren't running full armor already on your ML Quickdraw then you certainly should be looking at your build. ML are very efficient weapons, and it should not require any meaningful sacrifices to fit a mere six on your mech. If a Jenner can do it, something nearly twice as big should be able to do it more effectively.

Here's a STD 300 Quickdraw build with a SSRM2 and a ton of ammo. Full armor, full jump jets, full ML, and plenty of heat sinks.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b8a7dcfba2f2c13

Or, you could go with an XL 360. Once again, full armor, full jump jets, full ML, plenty of heat sinks, and adds a BAP.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2d5d1bd307cb0d9

It's trivially easy to fit one, and it adds a bit of reliable close-in damage. Assuming you have your arm lasers on one trigger, your torso lasers on another, and your SSRM on a third, that's three triggers. If you can't keep track of three sets of weapons you might consider practicing a bit more.

If you decide that a SSRM2 is not for you, then so be it. An SRM4 is half a ton heavier and twice the missiles, though it's harder to aim, and it just happens to have the same number of missiles as the Quickdraw has CT missile ports. Alternatively, leave the hard point empty and just put in more/bigger lasers.

Regardless, if you need to learn to tailor your build to your mech. Certain missile hard points are better for certain kinds of missiles (NARC pods are great for SSRMs, for instance). It's a great way to balance missile hard points, and it adds a lot of flavor to variants that otherwise might well end up looking pretty much the same (the Atlas missile pods, for instance).

You're trying too hard and still miss the point. To not be able to choose an SRM6 or LRM5 that will fire all missiles at the same time from that CT you're given less effective options, and it's just a silly thing to do on a chassis that can only use missiles and energy in the first place since your options were already fairly limited. Your making builds that have to adapt to that does not change the fact it's still a stupid design. And it's not like it's on one variant either, they just chose to do it on every single variant.

BTW your builds lack firepower and range, you're just a huge and much slower Jenner-K with a single ssrm2 on top. I'd most certainly at least put large lasers in the arms with an XL and get rid of the things I have least use of, like a single ssrm2 and ammo. And your second build, you waste 1.5 tons on a BAP for a single ssrm2, really?

Edited by armyof1, 21 June 2013 - 02:01 AM.

[Kmieciu]

InRev, on 20 June 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Yes, theoretically, you can still throw an LRM20 into a Narc tube location, but it will be useless in a practical sense.
Neither ballistics, nor energy weapons are limited in such a manner and it's flat out bizarre.

Well, LRM20 in a Narc tube is a great way to make the enemy waste their AMS ammo.

[Mercules]

armyof1, on 20 June 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

A single ssrms2 is a waste of space, to have a separate weapon to handle for the occasional 3 damage. Not to mention you probably need a BAP so you don't have to worry about ECM, which makes it even more wasteful. 4 missile tubes for a missile hardpoint with 2 slots available is just silly, you can't even put an LRM5 there without it firing first 4 then 1 single missile. Sure you can work with bad hardpoints and missile tube deflation, but it still doesn't make it less of a bad design.

There are plenty of times when the Single SSRM2 has helped kill even an ECM mech for me. For one thing there is a band of distance where you can still use your Streak and after taking a bunch of lasers to the CT so that it turns read most lights head for the hills, crossing that band and taking those Streaks. Often I can keep them there for a couple shots and I've finished them SSRM shots because I was high and heat.

Livewyr, on 20 June 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Actually, I agree with the OP.

I bought a quickdraw because other than JJs, a missile HP outside the CT is the only thing it has over the dragon, but since the missiles only come out 10 at a time, there's really no difference, and therefore little point IMO

I can go fast with it, with JJs, but it is little more than a cross between a dragon and a cataphract 3D without missile viability.

If you put 2 LRM 20s in that Torso it will come out as a Closely clumped group of 20 and closely clumped group of 20.

armyof1, on 20 June 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

A single SSRM2 and a ton of ammo that will be totally worthless on ECM mechs is pointless to carry around. Those 2.5 tons would be much better used as more armor, a ML or two or some DHS. To keep track on the cooldown of an extra weapon group when it's a measly single SSRM2 is a waste of effort. You are not being a better player just by having more weapon groups you know. And really if you have problems hitting a light with your other weapons, that single SSRM2 isn't going to scare off him off unless he's totally clueless in the first place.

It's 3 damage for very little heat that doesn't have to be held on target. While I am aiming shooting with normal weapons the Streak locks on and before I twist away it is fired and sails in to smack them for 3 more damage.

I have numerous mech layouts with MORE weapon systems. Just off the top of my head is the Treb with a PPC, LRM 10, 3 Medium Lasers, and a Tag. All four groups are on separate triggers and I can fire all of them at once or individually. It's not that hard to have a third weapon trigger.

Edited by Mercules, 21 June 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[MasterErrant]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 19 June 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

Its SRM4 has 4 ports, its LRM10 has 10 ports. I don't see a problem.

people think that firing lrms in volleys makes them less effective. but this is spurious. the volleys fir so close to gether that ams sees them as one shot

[Victor Morson]

Vassago Rain, on 20 June 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

The quickdraws currently have a max tube count of 10 in the side, and 4 in the center. The second pod that sometimes appears on the side seems completely cosmetic.

If it was real, you'd be able to shoot LRM15s in one volley, but they come out in two.

I was starting to think I posted this in error after seeing that extra port pop up, but no, it's still staggering out.

In fact, it's starting to make me wonder if this whole thread is based on a bug (improperly linked missile port) instead of a balance issue, in this case. The 4 in the center, though - that could use a dynamic port badly still I think.

MasterErrant, on 23 June 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

people think that firing lrms in volleys makes them less effective. but this is spurious. the volleys fir so close to gether that ams sees them as one shot

They do, big time, because of AMS. If there's AMS involved a full 15 volley will destroy a 10/5 volley for damage. Otherwise you're right.

I have noticed an issue that I've been looking into where if you are firing an LRM/5 through a single missile port, it does seem to confuse AMS horrendously and let the other missiles through, but I've been unable to get proper data on it in live games and I really don't want to waste my unit's 8v8 time toying with it. Man I wish training grounds worked.

Kmieciu, on 21 June 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

Well, LRM20 in a Narc tube is a great way to make the enemy waste their AMS ammo.

The problem with that is recycle. An LRM/5 in a single port tube will recycle at the same rate as an LRM/10 however (slight refire nerf), meaning it can clear the tube and be ready to launch again immediately. A 20 on the otherhand would get a huge DPS loss from doing that.

Again I'm not sure of the mechanics behind it, but AMS defintely reacts differently to lone missiles fired from a 1-port.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not endorsing firing a 5 through a single port. It's been a pet curiosity project for me, that's all. I don't have enough data as to what's actually happening, just subjective results that are prone to flux, to give better info here.

Edited by Victor Morson, 23 June 2013 - 04:46 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

armyof1, on 21 June 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

You're trying too hard and still miss the point. To not be able to choose an SRM6 or LRM5 that will fire all missiles at the same time from that CT you're given less effective options, and it's just a silly thing to do on a chassis that can only use missiles and energy in the first place since your options were already fairly limited. Your making builds that have to adapt to that does not change the fact it's still a stupid design. And it's not like it's on one variant either, they just chose to do it on every single variant.

BTW your builds lack firepower and range, you're just a huge and much slower Jenner-K with a single ssrm2 on top. I'd most certainly at least put large lasers in the arms with an XL and get rid of the things I have least use of, like a single ssrm2 and ammo. And your second build, you waste 1.5 tons on a BAP for a single ssrm2, really?

Limited tubes was a fine decision by PGI. It differentiates variants (and chassis in cases like the Jenner and Quickdraw that share stock missile launcher sizes among their variants), and requires actual decision-making in your build.

You could put an SRM6 in a 4-tube launcher and do very well with it. It even limits spread a bit (though increases the time you have to be on target to hit with everything). For that matter, I've seen people do extremely well with SRM6s in SRM2 tubes (especially the X5 Cicada). It's all about what sacrifices you're willing to make, and forcing such sacrifices is the core of balanced mech customization.

As for the BAP, it has uses for the team generally, not just your own mech, and it does make SSRMs far more useable, so since the build had weight to spare I went ahead and threw it on. Feel free to remove it and do something else with the weight.

6 ML is a bit under-gunned, sure, but the Quickdraw is an under-gunned mech generally. Any fast heavy is, which is why most Dragon builds go with XLs to give them the room to put some real guns on their rides. The XL is a very risky choice for a Quickdraw, though, as it has much more prominent side torsos.

[MasterErrant]

Mercules, on 19 June 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

No, it adds flavor to mechs. Besides the fewer ports actually give you more accurate shots. Six spread out more than 2 and dumping 6 missiles through a 2 slot leads to 3 launches of narrow focussed missiles.

I've heard this repeatedly. but I think it's just appearance the devs always in=tended it to be based on the installed weapons. what we see in the graphics isn't what the software sees at the hit detection phase.