13 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

OK, simple fact is, you can't apple to apple balance Clan Weapons to IS ones. They are 250 years more advanced, and quite simply, BETTER.

The Twitch Shooter everything has to directly balance is just more artificial. That does not, however mean that the Clan MEch, or Unit, in total has to be more powerful. One obvious balancer used in the original game was Numbers. 5-10 Clanners faced 12 or more IS mechs.

That worked to a point, until IS units started being able to mount Clan Tech and use Inner Sphere units structure and tactics. At which point in this game ALL current designs and weapons are instantly obsolete, and the Devs wasted everyone's time even developing them.

so here are my two thoughts:

1) BUILD LIMITS

In the IS< we are assumed to own our mechs, giving us carte blance to mod it anyway we have money to do. Clanners do not own their mechs. They are assigned by their commanders to whatever they need to balance out the Touman.

Hence, while the Mechs can swap out theirr weapons (Omni-Pods) as they see fit (although in canon, most Mechwarriors were forced to use one of several "stock" loadouts), they should have their Armor, Internal Structure and Engines LOCKED. (Heck maybe even limit each weapon to how much ammo it CAN carry, though that might be TOO extreme)

IN some builds, this is a minor concession, but others, like the Mad Dog and Hellbringer, have very light armor, which means while their firepower will still be immense, they will be very fragile and have poor battlefield endurance. Which brings me to pt .2....

2) LIMIT AMMO
The Clans were largely beat on Tukayid due to poor logistics (Their style oof warfare is based around Blitzkrieg tactics, shock and awe, not long grinds). Most Canon Omnis carry minimal ammo. To replicate this, leave Clan Ammo counts stock to TT. Whereas the IS mechs all have extra ammo to compensate some for the heavier armor, leave the Clan Ammo as is. A Clan AC 20 has 5 shots, not 7, etc. This means that an Ultra AC20 is still fearsome, but it will be very difficult, in most cases, to keep enough ammo to stay on the battlefield for long periods.

By themselves, maybe it doesn't seem like much, but no single "nerf" will balance units 250 years more advanced. It will need to be a mix of things.


TL;DR: Use 2 restrictions to help limit the Clan Tech advantage. 1) Limit customization to ONLY weapons, not Engine, Structure and Armor, for reasons explained above. 2) Do NOT buff Clan Ammo quantities, but leave them at stock TT levels.

[Khanahar]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 June 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

OK, simple fact is, you can't apple to apple balance Clan Weapons to IS ones. They are 250 years more advanced, and quite simply, BETTER.

The Twitch Shooter everything has to directly balance is just more artificial. That does not, however mean that the Clan MEch, or Unit, in total has to be more powerful. One obvious balancer used in the original game was Numbers. 5-10 Clanners faced 12 or more IS mechs.

That worked to a point, until IS units started being able to mount Clan Tech and use Inner Sphere units structure and tactics. At which point in this game ALL current designs and weapons are instantly obsolete, and the Devs wasted everyone's time even developing them.

so here are my two thoughts:

1) BUILD LIMITS

In the IS< we are assumed to own our mechs, giving us carte blance to mod it anyway we have money to do. Clanners do not own their mechs. They are assigned by their commanders to whatever they need to balance out the Touman.

Hence, while the Mechs can swap out theirr weapons (Omni-Pods) as they see fit (although in canon, most Mechwarriors were forced to use one of several "stock" loadouts), they should have their Armor, Internal Structure and Engines LOCKED. (Heck maybe even limit each weapon to how much ammo it CAN carry, though that might be TOO extreme)

IN some builds, this is a minor concession, but others, like the Mad Dog and Hellbringer, have very light armor, which means while their firepower will still be immense, they will be very fragile and have poor battlefield endurance. Which brings me to pt .2....

2) LIMIT AMMO
The Clans were largely beat on Tukayid due to poor logistics (Their style oof warfare is based around Blitzkrieg tactics, shock and awe, not long grinds). Most Canon Omnis carry minimal ammo. To replicate this, leave Clan Ammo counts stock to TT. Whereas the IS mechs all have extra ammo to compensate some for the heavier armor, leave the Clan Ammo as is. A Clan AC 20 has 5 shots, not 7, etc. This means that an Ultra AC20 is still fearsome, but it will be very difficult, in most cases, to keep enough ammo to stay on the battlefield for long periods.

By themselves, maybe it doesn't seem like much, but no single "nerf" will balance units 250 years more advanced. It will need to be a mix of things.


TL;DR: Use 2 restrictions to help limit the Clan Tech advantage. 1) Limit customization to ONLY weapons, not Engine, Structure and Armor, for reasons explained above. 2) Do NOT buff Clan Ammo quantities, but leave them at stock TT levels.

I've given a lot of thought to this kind of thing, and while I think it's attractive in principle, it would need a lot of tweaking to work. If we just leave every Clan 'mech with its stock armor, for instance, the Loki is probably worthless, while other Clan 'mechs are barely affected. You'd need a lot of incentive to make the Loki able to make up for its deficiency.

[Gaan Cathal]

I'm not sure why you think there's a problem balancing with numbers-per-side. 10 Clan mechs vs 12 IS mechs will probably actually work fairly well with the current balancing situation. IS mechs won't be mounting Clan technology for about a decade, so I doubt it's something MW:O will need to concern itself with.

[Khanahar]

Gaan Cathal, on 18 June 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

I'm not sure why you think there's a problem balancing with numbers-per-side. 10 Clan mechs vs 12 IS mechs will probably actually work fairly well with the current balancing situation. IS mechs won't be mounting Clan technology for about a decade, so I doubt it's something MW:O will need to concern itself with.

I vote 5v12 and give them a higher tonnage limit per 'mech. The most popular Clan designs are heavily concentrated in the heavy weight class, while IS tonnage should be balanced around an average of 50.

[Gaan Cathal]

Khanahar, on 18 June 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

I vote 5v12 and give them a higher tonnage limit per 'mech. The most popular Clan designs are heavily concentrated in the heavy weight class, while IS tonnage should be balanced around an average of 50.

I dunno, the Adder and Kit Fox are fairly popular, and the Vulture is pretty damn lightweight.

[Starkad10]

Quote

I dunno, the Adder and Kit Fox are fairly popular, and the Vulture is pretty damn lightweight.

Well, they still use light mechs ofcourse, but they just have a special feel for the heavies And the vulture is a 60 tonner, heavy mech.

[Bhael Fire]

Khanahar, on 18 June 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

I vote 5v12 and give them a higher tonnage limit per 'mech. The most popular Clan designs are heavily concentrated in the heavy weight class, while IS tonnage should be balanced around an average of 50.

This is the best (and simplest) way to handle clans; one Star vs. two or three Lances.

Since IS mechs will not have access to clan tech, balancing by numbers is more than adequate and effective.

I posted my prediction for how clans will be handled about six months ago here:

http://mwomercs.com/...-clan-invasion/

Edited by Bhael Fire, 18 June 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[Khanahar]

Gaan Cathal, on 18 June 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

I dunno, the Adder and Kit Fox are fairly popular, and the Vulture is pretty damn lightweight.

Sure, people like the Puma and Uller (see what I did there?). But I assure you any of the original 4 heavies (Mad Cat, Thor, Loki, Vulture) would do better in a popularity poll. They would be the top four (or close to it) of almost any listing. Shadow Cat, Uller, Daishi, and Masakari have their fans, to be sure. But the four original Clan 'mechs could be the only ones ever added and lots of folks would be happy. (Though I sure want my HBK IIC)

[Khanahar]

So, I went and found this http://mwomercs.com/...rite-clan-mech/ thread and used its first 3 pages as a rough barometer of most popular Clan 'mechs. I excluded anything with only a single mention. I also excluded the shockingly popular Uziel (the top medium) for obvious reasons.

109 total votes:

32 votes for Assaults
58 for Heavies
9 for Mediums
10 for Lights

In ranked order of popularity:
1. Vulture
2. Mad Cat
3. Thor
///almost twofold drop to...
4. Daishi
4. Masakari
6. Behemoth (!?)
6. Nova Cat
6. Puma
9. Blood Asp
10. Kodiak
11. Loki
12. Cauldron Born

Notice how the Puma is the only sub-Heavy on the list? People like Clan heavies (especially) and assaults.

5v12 is the way to go.

[Gaan Cathal]

Khanahar, on 18 June 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Notice how the Puma is the only sub-Heavy on the list? People like Clan heavies (especially) and assaults.

5v12 is the way to go.

I would counter that people like Inner Sphere Assaults (especially) and Mediums. 5v12 will be a loosing proposition for the Clanners every time, no amount of high-powered weapons is going to account for that amount of focused fire in a game where you can manually aim. Hell, twelve dual-PPC IS lights would almost certainly rip apart five, say, Timberwolves. Clan mechs might carry more firepower but they are not any tougher (and, if some slightly delusional types on the forum get their way, will be running around 1/3 the armour of IS mechs). A Binary vs three Lances (with appropriate tonnage restrictions etc) would be fairer. Clan gear just isn't that much better in a manual-aiming environment. Certainly not "outnumbered more than 2:1" better.

As an aside, I'd be surprised if there is anything particularly 'omni' about their mechs. They'll likely work as per current mechs, with the Config substituting for Variant (possibly with a single Chassis purchase, and then a smaller 'Config addition' cost for variation).

Edit: That's also not accounting for the IS side gaming the system. With 12 quad-ERPPC Stalkers fielded, there's only so far 'up' the Clan tonnage advantage can go. Five 100 ton mechs won't win that. Assuming quad-CERPPC Dire Wolves, there's no way in hell they'll win. Even if they can sustain fire with hexa-CERPPC Dire Wolves, they're still going to melt before they can chew through twelve Stalkers.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 18 June 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[ShadowbaneX]

Khanahar, on 18 June 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

5v12 is the way to go.

If it was stock IS mechs 5 vs 12 might be reasonable, but the stock mechs are horrible. With all the customization and Star League era tech that everyone uses, 5 vs 8 (or more likely) 10 vs 16 is what we'll probably see, which would be pretty close to the 12 vs 12 we're getting soon.

That said, I can dream about 15 vs. 24, ie, a Trinary versus 2 Companies, but we'd need 39 population servers first and much, much bigger maps.

[Bhael Fire]

Gaan Cathal, on 18 June 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

I would counter that people like Inner Sphere Assaults (especially) and Mediums. 5v12 will be a loosing proposition for the Clanners every time, no amount of high-powered weapons is going to account for that amount of focused fire in a game where you can manually aim. Hell, twelve dual-PPC IS lights would almost certainly rip apart five, say, Timberwolves. Clan mechs might carry more firepower but they are not any tougher (and, if some slightly delusional types on the forum get their way, will be running around 1/3 the armour of IS mechs). A Binary vs three Lances (with appropriate tonnage restrictions etc) would be fairer. Clan gear just isn't that much better in a manual-aiming environment. Certainly not "outnumbered more than 2:1" better.

As an aside, I'd be surprised if there is anything particularly 'omni' about their mechs. They'll likely work as per current mechs, with the Config substituting for Variant (possibly with a single Chassis purchase, and then a smaller 'Config addition' cost for variation).

Edit: That's also not accounting for the IS side gaming the system. With 12 quad-ERPPC Stalkers fielded, there's only so far 'up' the Clan tonnage advantage can go. Five 100 ton mechs won't win that. Assuming quad-CERPPC Dire Wolves, there's no way in hell they'll win. Even if they can sustain fire with hexa-CERPPC Dire Wolves, they're still going to melt before they can chew through twelve Stalkers.

All of this is moot. The main point is; The best way to balance clans is by limiting their numbers in drops, whether that's 5 vs 8, 5 vs 12, or 10 vs. 16. Arguing about the numbers is pointless, as we have NO idea how powerful the clan mechs will be compared to IS mechs.

However, one thing's for sure...since clan tech is more powerful, the clans WILL be outnumbered by IS mechs during matches.

[Gaan Cathal]

Bhael Fire, on 18 June 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

All of this is moot. The main point is; The best way to balance clans is by limiting their numbers in drops, whether that's 5 vs 8, 5 vs 12, or 10 vs. 16. Arguing about the numbers is pointless, as we have NO idea how powerful the clan mechs will be compared to IS mechs.

However, one thing's for sure...since clan tech is more powerful, the clans WILL be outnumbered by IS mechs during matches.

Ah, but arguing the numbers might throw up concepts like the comparison of high-alpha assaults vs high-alpha assaults and so forth that PGI may not have considered due to concentrating their Clan balancing on ensuring that Jenner IICs don't core Atlases in 3s.

Seriously though, agree entirely that Clan balancing has to be weight of numbers from both an effectiveness and setting perspective. Arguing over likely numbers is fun theorycrafting though, as is trying to estimate what Clantech will actually do when it arrives.

[The Gunman]

I have no problems with Clan mechs and equipment being simply superior to IS stuff, balancing by simply fielding less Clanners seems like a good idea.

I think 5v8 and 10v12 would be pretty fair, especially with ELO thrown into the mix.