47 replies to this topic

[White Bear 84]

Decided to try out my Spider-5K today and found it was a nice suprise, a step in the right direction i think. With 4 MG and a medlas, first round 3 kills and 300 damage and second and third round 6 assists and around the same damage.

Personally i think 1.2 would be the sweet number to balance them right. Thoughts?

Edit: Excuse my derp... ...1.2 would be a bit OP lol! I meant to say 0.12

Edited by White Bear 84, 19 June 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[Zephyre]

White Bear,

I have to respectfully disagree. MGs have had 5 buffs now I believe. Additionally with the latest buff they are now the highest dps per tonne of any weapon. Each MG is capable of 1dps. Bundled together with a few more and you've got a scary proposition. I came up against a Jager DD last night that just chewed off all of my components. Two ERPPCs and 6 MGs.

MGs are putting everything else in their range bracket to shame. All while generating zero heat and being very light. I had to make predictions, but I see heavy MG builds becoming a dominant force in this game. Possibly a bit too dominant in the brawl. Heck at this point I'm ready to dump my AC/20s for MGs. I never thought I'd say that.

MGs are offering better DPs per tonne and much better staying power that other balistics.

[Adran]

Zephyre, on 19 June 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

White Bear,

I have to respectfully disagree. MGs have had 5 buffs now I believe. Additionally with the latest buff they are now the highest dps per tonne of any weapon. Each MG is capable of 1dps. Bundled together with a few more and you've got a scary proposition. I came up against a Jager DD last night that just chewed off all of my components. Two ERPPCs and 6 MGs.

MGs are putting everything else in their range bracket to shame. All while generating zero heat and being very light. I had to make predictions, but I see heavy MG builds becoming a dominant force in this game. Possibly a bit too dominant in the brawl. Heck at this point I'm ready to dump my AC/20s for MGs. I never thought I'd say that.

MGs are offering better DPs per tonne and much better staying power that other balistics.

I think it's more that Ballistics in general need a buff. For their weight, they're not usually worth it in comparison to Lasers and Missiles.

[ho1mes]

I think it feels pretty good now. I run 4 MGs on my Jager DD and it chews up enemies much quicker than it did a while back, even last patch. I'm a fan of MGs, but 1.2 DPS might be a bit much. So is the 6MG jager finally a force to be reckoned with? Hmm..

[Amsro]

Zephyre, on 19 June 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

White Bear,

I have to respectfully disagree. MGs have had 5 buffs now I believe. Additionally with the latest buff they are now the highest dps per tonne of any weapon. Each MG is capable of 1dps. Bundled together with a few more and you've got a scary proposition. I came up against a Jager DD last night that just chewed off all of my components. Two ERPPCs and 6 MGs.

MGs are putting everything else in their range bracket to shame. All while generating zero heat and being very light. I had to make predictions, but I see heavy MG builds becoming a dominant force in this game. Possibly a bit too dominant in the brawl. Heck at this point I'm ready to dump my AC/20s for MGs. I never thought I'd say that.

MGs are offering better DPs per tonne and much better staying power that other balistics.

You claim MG to be amazing while tossing a couple measly ER PPC's into the mix.

Try them on a light where the only other weapon is a ER Large Laser at best. 1 ER Large Laser still does far more damage then 4 x MG.

Edit; With that said 1.2 could make things interesting.

Edited by Amsro, 19 June 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

machine gun is OP!!!!

[Adridos]

Amsro, on 19 June 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

1 ER Large Laser still does far more damage then 4 x MG.

...and is MUCH heavier and produces MUCH more heat.

[Zephyre]

Thank you for pointing out, Adridos.

Sadly people can't think like that. On top of the weight and and heat issue, I'm also looking at sustained dps/tonne vs range.

the MG produces 1dps per half tonne.

compare that to a ppc that does 2.5 dps for 7 tonnes. Yep that's right, less than 1 dps per tonne, also rof limited by how fast you can dump heat.

I suppose this is offset by the MGs lack of range.

NOW WITH ALL THAT SAID!

No where did I say they were OP or Broken. I kind of like where they are at. You can't just ignore them any longer. And a pack of spiders is cause for some concern.

What I did say is that I thought that any more buffs would make them stronger than they need to be.

[Tolkien]

Over the past two patches the machine gun has received a massive 250% damage boost and a 33% range boost, and is just now getting into territory where people are starting to use them non-ironically.

Keep in mind that the machine gun does have at least two big drawbacks
1) Exploding ammo, like other ballistic and missile weapons
2) Requires 100% uptime to do the stated damage. Other weapons like the Auto cannons and lasers let you hit and run, while a machine gun needs a long sustained engagement which is often not suited to the mechs carrying them.

[cmdr_scotty]

at least now MGs are a viable use on lights such as the raven 4x.

If they do end up doing another damage buff, then i would hope to see some type of ammo nerf.

thing to remember with ballistics, is you need to account for at least 1 ton of ammo into the equation for DPS.

so in reality looking at DPS for a single MG isn't a .5 ton but a 1.5 ton view since it needs ammo to run.

since 1 mg + 1 ton ammo = 1.5 tons w/ 2000 shots.
2 mg + 1 ton ammo = 2 tons w/ 1000 shots.

granted each mg only weighs .5 tons, your gonna need some amount of ammo to use it.

[Tolkien]

Zephyre, on 19 June 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

White Bear,

I have to respectfully disagree. MGs have had 5 buffs now I believe. Additionally with the latest buff they are now the highest dps per tonne of any weapon. Each MG is capable of 1dps. Bundled together with a few more and you've got a scary proposition. I came up against a Jager DD last night that just chewed off all of my components. Two ERPPCs and 6 MGs.

MGs are putting everything else in their range bracket to shame. All while generating zero heat and being very light. I had to make predictions, but I see heavy MG builds becoming a dominant force in this game. Possibly a bit too dominant in the brawl. Heck at this point I'm ready to dump my AC/20s for MGs. I never thought I'd say that.

MGs are offering better DPs per tonne and much better staying power that other balistics.

I recommend you keep the AC/20s

I just did some testing with my spider and cicada to get a 'feel' for how long it takes to chew something with 4 machine guns versus 4 small lasers. With the spider I put in 4 machine guns and moved up to point blank on each of a commando a cicada and an atlas and stopwatch timed how long it took for the target to go down with damage *only* to their front centre torso.

Machine Guns x4:
Commando> 9 seconds, 340 rounds (ammo use suggests it was shorter, than 9 seconds)
Cicada> 15 seconds, 476 rounds (ammo use suggests it was only 11.9 seconds)
Atlas> 51 seconds, 1588 rounds (ammo use suggests it was only 39.7 seconds).

This suggests the machine gun is only firing at 7.78 rounds per second, so it has probably been stealth nerfed or something.


Small lasers x4
4 small lasers

commando>6 seconds
cicada> 10 seconds
atlas> 36 seconds


so the lasers perform better at the cost of shorter range and more heat, while the machine guns have 2 tons of explody ammo kicking around the mech and require 100% line of sight and uptime to do that. The lasers only need a 1/3.25 or ~31% line of sight to the target to do the same.

Your AC20 can peek and poke much more effectively needing only a peek every 4 seconds.


p.s. I cross posted this here as a new bug in the fire rate of machine guns> http://mwomercs.com/...-second-not-10/

Edited by Tolkien, 19 June 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Tennex]

could use a cone reduction by 1/2

[ho1mes]

Tennex, on 19 June 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

could use a cone reduction by 1/2

That'd be about the only thing I'd really like to see changed on MGs. More concentrated fire would be nice.

[Zephyre]

Didn't know that rof on mgs had dropped to 8/sec. I had assumed it was still 10.

Can't disagree with a tighter cof.

[cmdr_scotty]

Zephyre, on 19 June 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Didn't know that rof on mgs had dropped to 8/sec. I had assumed it was still 10.

Can't disagree with a tighter cof.

got no problem with that. their short range makes it useless as a sniping weapon so a tight cone of fire wouldn't be an OP buff

[Tolkien]

Zephyre, on 19 June 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

Didn't know that rof on mgs had dropped to 8/sec. I had assumed it was still 10.

Can't disagree with a tighter cof.

A user called koniving has done some testing apparently - he posted back to my new thread here http://mwomercs.com/...-second-not-10/

His video apparently shows the mg's cycling between less than 8 and 13 rounds per second.... so apparently it's not strictly a nerf but just a hose without a fireman.

As one of my friends said with a complete deadpan voice "Listen guys, do you have any idea how hard it is to get a computer to do something at fixed intervals? I mean we're basically talking about counting ticks here, and I don't think that's something computers were ever designed to do."

I almost pissed myself laughing when he said it.

[White Bear 84]

First of all i need to redact my first statement!! 1.2 What was i thinking?! I must have been high..

I was meaning to say 0.12!!

Secondly - agree with COF!!

Thirdly, dont dump your AC/20's! The MG jagers might be toug and i think that is a reasonable build? Agree they can do a lot of damage, but they have to get close first and that should give you time to take out their torso!! You have a couple of clear shots with the 20's and you dont need to worry about the MG jager

[Vermaxx]

The machine gun needs to apply 2 damage in .75 seconds. That is the same 'beam duration' as a small laser, and that is THE ONLY WAY IT WILL EVER BE COMPETITIVE. It doesn't even have its massive crit bonuses anymore.

2 damage in .75 seconds. Now, they can leave it autofire and figure that out (and it will probably be massively overpowered) or they can take out the stupid autofire and give it the same cooldown as a small laser.

Edited by Vermaxx, 19 June 2013 - 06:17 PM.

[Vermaxx]

I must point out that right now both the small laser and the MG are 1dps weapons...sort of.

SL does 3 damage in .75 seconds, with a mandatory 2.25 second cooldown. 3 second full cycle, 3 damage.
MG does .10 damage per bullet, ten bullets per second. One full second for appreciable effect, no cycle time. 1 damage.

In 3 seconds of CLINICAL TRIAL USE, both weapons are similar, and do their 'book value' damage on a comparable track. Even THIS points out the flaws - a MG can EQUAL a small laser in clinical trials. It can pump out 1dps just like a SL, because it never cools down. A MG should always do 2 damage in the same period where a SL does 3, unless we're just going to completely rewrite the MG and admit light ballistic mechs are totally awesome and should boat MG.

HOWEVER, in 3 seconds of REAL WORLD USE, the small laser hits someone for around 3 damage because all they had to maintain was a .75 second steady hand. The MG most likely hits someone for less than 1 damage, because it needs a full second, has spread, and doesn't do anywhere near the same "pulse" damage as a laser. In real world combat, a MG is ineffective. Let's say you only keep the cursor on there for half a second, you still get 2 damage. The MG does half a point of damage in half a second.

This is the problem with using DPS to compare apples and oranges. Unless all weapons are cooldown, or autofire, they are fundamentally different and cannot be balanced against each other.

I cannot think of a way to "balance" the MG against a SL with this fundamental difference. My knee jerk is to set the bullets to .25 damage each, so it does 2.5 damage per second. This is about 2 damage every .75 seconds, like a small laser, except it has no cooldown and then ends up being roughly double the DPS of a small laser. I would say something like .17 damage per bullet, but even then it is clearly a better "dps" weapon.

Edited by Vermaxx, 19 June 2013 - 06:38 PM.

[Asmosis]

I think it works pretty well right now. its damage is approx the same as the small laser over time, the increased accuracy needed to hold "beam" duration is countered by its high crit rate (it still has this right?).

Small lasers also produce moderate heat in groups, so i think those two advantages (heat + crit) offset the need to keep focus for the full 3 seconds rather than 1/4 of that 3 seconds. Going to be running some JM 6x MG builds today to see now that works out (4 uac5 was a blast).

Also @above, if they could do something similar to SSRM's (which is i think what your suggesting) where it only fires on target, that'd be awesome, and probably need a dmg nerf

(also waiting on the ability to manually shoot down LRM's, its on the discussion table afaik for weapons in general)

Edited by Asmosis, 19 June 2013 - 10:07 PM.