55 replies to this topic

[TheRulesLawyer]

Owl Cutter, on 09 November 2011 - 12:15 PM, said:

Giving all autocannon comparable DPS would horribly break them in favour of the lighter ones; why use a 14 ton weapon when a 6 tonner does comparable damage out to more than twice the range and with similar ammo efficiency?

Not really. Well, not if they fix the pin point accuracy problem previous MW games had anyways. Doing 20pts to one location is still a lot more useful than doing 5pts to 4 locations.

[theginganinja]

I figure Autocannons should be semi-auto (fire once with every pull of the trigger). I also think that one "shot" of ammunition (i.e. 5 shots per ton of AC/20 ammo) should count for multiple shells - and I have reason for it. Watching the '09 Mechwarrior trailer, I counted the Atlas firing about 24 shots from an autocannon that, canonically, should have run out after 10. The pilot then got desperate and decided to use his LRMs at extremely close range - I'm guessing he was down to either very little AC ammo, or out entirely. If I had to take a guess, I'd say he started out with about 30 shells in his ammo bin. This makes each "shot" of ammunition worth 3 shells, which should be fired one at a time, pretty much as fast as you can pull the trigger (autoloaders are not all that slow, people). I think that this formula could work quite well in-game - it lets you have a decent fire rate, run out of ammo slower, and still have a hard-hitting weapon. The 3-shell per canon-"shot" system could work with the smaller ACs as well, since they of course get more "shots" per ton. By doing the usual and giving the smaller ACs more ammo and longer range, and the larger ones more damage and knockback to the target, I think this system would work quite well. As far as damage goes, I liked the MW2 ACs' damage per shot - just make every three shells in the new game do the same amount of damage as one "shot" did in MW2.
*Edit #2* On second thought, looking the trailer over again, it looks like the Atlas used his LRMs because the Warhammer's last PPC shot damaged the AC/20. This opens the possibility that the Atlas had a huge amount of ammo left; since we can't be sure, though, I'm gonna stick with my 3-shell-per-"shot" system - otherwise the individual shells will start to lose a lot of their firepower as the "shot's" overall firepower is split up more and more.
Just for fun, here is are a pair of real M242 Bushmaster Autocannons (25mm, probably about like what an AC/2 would be) firing from on top of two Bradley Fighting Vehicles. While AC/DC's Thunderstruck is playing. And it is awesome .
Sorry, I'm not sure how to post a video, so just follow the link if you want to see.. Edit: Nevermind, apparently it knows when I'm trying to post a video...

Edited by irishwarrior, 09 November 2011 - 06:27 PM.

[Nebfer]

Well their is room for "full automatic type" auto cannons and for "semi-auto" auto-cannons

Auto-cannons are fluff as having a wide range of types, even in the same rating, some Class 20 autocannons fire one or two shells in the 200mm or so range, and their are thoughs that fire 14 or so projectiles of 100mm caliber in a single burst.


In universe theirs even a wide range of different brands

A partial list of autocannon brands (with known calibers)
Class 2 Autocannons
SarLon (30mm)
Imperator Smoothie-2
Mydron Model D
ZeusBolt
Whirlwind-L (30 or 32mm -depending on the source)

Ultra AC-2s
Mydron Model D-rf (20mm)

LBX-2 ACs
Defiance Shredder
Imperator
Mydron Excel

Class 2 Rotary Autocannon
Thor (40mm)
Mydron Model RD
Mydron Tornado
=========================
Class 5 Autocannons
Armstrong J-11 (80mm)
Deleon-5
GM Whirlwind (120mm)
Mydron Model C (50mm)
Flak
Mydron Five
Scarborough Original 5
Pontiac Light (40mm)
Armstrong "buster" (50mm)
Imperator A (80mm)
Defiance Type J (w) (Clan)

LBX-5 Autocannon
Defiance Shredder
Mydron Excel 5SG

Ultra Class 5 autocannon
GM Nova-5 (50mm or 40mm)
Imperator (80mm)
Mydron Excel

Class 5 Rotary Auto cannon
Mydron Model RC (50mm or 80mm)
Mydron Tornado

===CLASS 10 AUTOCANNONS===
Defiance Killer Type T
Mydron Model B (80mm)
Ceres Arms Model T
SarLon MaxiCannon
Armstrong
Pontiac 50
New Samarkand
Defiance Killer Type T
Luxor D-Series (80mm)
Federated Autocannon/10 (100mm)
Kali Yama (80mm)

LB-10X AUTOCANNONS
Defiance Disintegrator
Defiance Shredder
Imperator Code Red (100mm or 80mm)
Mydron Excel (80mm)
Kali Yama Weapons Industries
Oriente Model O
Blankenburg
Armstrong Class-B ClusterGuns

ULTRA CLASS 10 AUTOCANNONS
Mydron Excel (80mm)
Imperator Automatic
Scarborough Original 20

CLASS 20 AUTOCANNONS
Defiance ‘Mech Hunter
Luxor Devastator-20
Mydron Model A
Crusher SH Cannon
Imperator Zeta-a
Kali Yama Big Bore
Crusher SH Cannon (150mm)
Mydron Obliterator
Tomodzuru (180mm)
Armstrong Requiem
Pontiac 100 (100mm)
185mm ChemJet Gun (185mm)
DeathGiver (100mm)
Armstrong 20 (120mm)

LB-20X AUTOCANNONS
Defiance Disintegrator (120mm) -Barghest
Mydron Devastator

ULTRA CLASS 20 AUTOCANNONS
Defiance Thunder (120mm) -Blitzkrieg
Mydron Model A-rf
Imperator Automatic
Tomodzuru Automatic (180mm)

Edited by Nebfer, 09 November 2011 - 06:47 PM.

[Col Sanders]

Autocannons were described in detail in Battletechnology. Decades out of date but it gives some insight.

It describes autocannons as fire casettes containing submunitions. An AC 20 might be a 203mm cannon that fires 2 casettes per second, while an AC 2 is a 40mm cannon firing at several times that rate. One shot isn't one casette, but one shot is the amount of fire that the mech puts out over the course of a few seconds.

Edited by Col. Sanders, 09 November 2011 - 06:57 PM.

[guardiandashi]

if you want to get technical per battletech history all autocannon weapons are large rapid fire machinegun style weapons that every time you pull the "trigger" fire a burst of ammo

some fire a large number of small rounds while others fire a smaller number of larger rounds

considering all weight in battletech is metric, that means an ac20's 5 rounds per ton is very likely to be more than 1 shell possibly 3+ even if it is 200mm

there is even an ac20 that in 1 description fires 100 shells per "shot"

the 120 mm ac5 used by the marauder fires ~3-5 shells per shot kinda a bam bam bam effect

wheras something like the riflemans ac5 or the victor's ac 20 would be more like a babambababbb (IE sounding like cloth ripping with each thread pop being a seperate round going off)

now in more correct battletech technohistory all autocannons, most ultra autocannons, and all lbx autocannons SHOULD be single barreled

and all RAC (Rotory Autocannons) are by definition multibarreled

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The main problem is that RL and BT don't mesh when it comes to AC's. In RL the larger the caliber the greater the range and the slower the rate of fire. Everyone therefore assumes that, and it is generally backed up by BT lore, that the greater the designation the greater the caliber - yet in BT the range drops off rather than increases. It's something that has always annoyed me since the TT days when i used to play a lot. The trouble is that in BT AC's just don't do the damage they should. Lasers should be primarily ablative weapons while AC's should be penetrative. In a PC game we have the ability to correctly model cumulative armour damage rather than the good/bad boxes of TT gaming. As a heretic I think that we should hope that the dev's will use this opportunity to update the game to suit modern gaming abilities within the spirit of BT rather than accept the problems caused by decades old TT rules. this problem will be exacerbated by the return of the Clan's, where effectively only the elite warriors of the IS (and the best tacticians & strategists) has much chance of surviving, let alone winning.
AC/s do have more chance at the shorter ranges of urban combat, but even there you are usually better off with ML's - especially if there is any extended combat - a Huncback loses most of it's combat effectivenedd when your AC20 has gone through it's very limited ammo supply. hopefully there will be the abilty to re-supply in the field dfor those with mostly non-energy weapons.
Whatever happen's I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the game - I had lost hope of ever seing a new MW gane.

[guardiandashi]

I actually have a legitimate answer for why heavier autocannons have shorter ranges than lighter ones in battletech, but its kinda odd

a light autocannon (ac 2) tends to proportunately have a long or really long barrel which causes a given amount of propellant to give the shells more acceleration

the medium ac (ac5) tends to have a long barrel as well but shorter than the ac2's

the heavy ac (ac10) tends to have a medium to short barrel for its size

the superheavy ac (ac20) tends to have a short to very short barrel

because of these factors the bigger the autocannon the shorter its ranges, ... plus it was a game ballance mechanism

[Nik Van Rhijn]

True - in fact AC's were shown more realistically on vehicles most of the time. In fact barrel length seemed to vary drastically for much of the artwork. All told given the state of ballistic weopns in RL at the time of BT's inception and their implementation in the game I would suggest that the majority is down to game balance & prefernce ie you can't have "old" tech like guns being better than cool "future" tech like lasers. Just like the gauss rile, especially with a round projectile doesn't work that well in atmosphere in the caliber shown due to air resistance.

[Captain Hat]

It's interesting to note that the statistics given for the Gauss rifle in the TM make it pretty much comparable in terms of performance to a modern 120mm sabot round.

But then I've never expected realism from BTech in the first place- the concept of the giant walker dominating the battlefield is anything but realistic, and the way the armour mechanic works is extremely weird if you know anything at all about the way armour works in real life...

[Zyllos]

As others have stated above, I have always viewed ACs as guns which fired multiple shells per trigger. Smaller the caliber, more shots down field per trigger. The reason why the smaller caliber had further range is because of less recoil. Firing that huge Ultra AC20 that fires 2 shells per trigger would make precise aiming out of the question. Where an AC2 firing 10 shells but with little recoil could have a tiny cover thus allowing for precise aiming.

So I think the devs need to model this in their game. ACs should fire bursts of shells dependent on the AC size. Ultra ACs should just double the rate of fire by firing double the amount of shells in the same amount of time. Thus, AC20s should fire like 1 shell, AC10s firing 2 shells, AC5s firing 4 shells, and AC2s firing 10 shells. Ultra ACs double that amount to 2 shells, 4 shells, 8 shells, and 20 shells respectively. All of them should be firing within a rate of 2s per case of shells. Thus an Ultra AC2 should fire 10 shells / second and an AC20 should fire 1 shell every 2 seconds. The damage per shell should be the AC value divided by the number of shells (of regular ACs) fired per case. Thus an AC5 should deal 1.25 damage per shell and an Ultra AC10 should deal 5 damage per shell.

After each salvo, the gun should have a small period of reload and then continue again.

Just my two cents...

Edited by Zyllos, 10 November 2011 - 08:20 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Zyllos, on 10 November 2011 - 08:17 AM, said:

As others have stated above, I have always viewed ACs as guns which fired multiple shells per trigger. Smaller the caliber, more shots down field per trigger. The reason why the smaller caliber had further range is because of less recoil. Firing that huge Ultra AC20 that fires 2 shells per trigger would make precise aiming out of the question. Where an AC2 firing 10 shells but with little recoil could have a tiny cover thus allowing for precise aiming.

So I think the devs need to model this in their game. ACs should fire bursts of shells dependent on the AC size. Ultra ACs should just double the rate of fire by firing double the amount of shells in the same amount of time. Thus, AC20s should fire like 1 shell, AC10s firing 2 shells, AC5s firing 4 shells, and AC2s firing 10 shells. Ultra ACs double that amount to 2 shells, 4 shells, 8 shells, and 20 shells respectively. All of them should be firing within a rate of 2s per case of shells. Thus an Ultra AC2 should fire 10 shells / second and an AC20 should fire 1 shell every 2 seconds. The damage per shell should be the AC value divided by the number of shells (of regular ACs) fired per case. Thus an AC5 should deal 1.25 damage per shell and an Ultra AC10 should deal 5 damage per shell.

After each salvo, the gun should have a small period of reload and then continue again.

Just my two cents...

I think its a really cool idea except for the fact that hit location clumping really matters. Breaking out submunitions for damage really weakens guns like the ac/20. You'd really have to treat energy weapons as a DOT attack and then it still leaves missles being made relatively more powerful. Especially the SRM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I agree - the only point to an AC20 given the size, weight and ammo penalties is the 20 point damage in one location. SRM's have always been a favourite of mine in TT. Where possible I always tried to replace SRM^'s with Streak2's - on urban maps in MW3 you could have a ballistic boat with AC20's and SRM's that was fun to play at point blank range - great if you turned a street corner and came face to face with another mech - especially if it had PPC's & LRM's for long range attacks down the length of the street. Ripple firing used to keep them enough off balance to stop them targetting you.

[Gaius Cavadus]

There was a really interesting description of how an autocannon fires in an old BT novel. I forget the name... I think it had something to do with the Gray Death Legion, Hesperus II, and the Skye region or whatever. I remember that eventually the protagonist gets a hold of a Zeus prototype and starts going to town.

Anyways, the ACs in that novel were described to operate like some post WWII French tank guns.

Basically, a "cassette" of ammunition is loaded like a magazine into the AC. The AC fires in full auto as it functions like any machine gun.

You can fire single rounds, do bursts, dump the entire cassette all at once, et cetera. After the cassette is empty it's ejected and new one is reloaded. Obviously this is a bit more time consuming than just loading up another burst of ammo like we've seen in the other MechWarriors.

The larger the caliber of the AC the less ammunition in each cassette. I quite liked this description and have always wished to see ACs represented in this way.

[Zyllos]

Well, could go with a system that makes the functionality between the Ultra AC and the regular AC different in the number of shells it puts out.

The AC20, AC10, AC5, and AC2 all fire single shots, thus placing all their damage in a single shell. The Ultra AC versions fires shells as outlined above, the AC20 firing 2 shells, AC10 firing 4 shells, AC5 firing 8 shells, and AC2 firing 16 shells per trigger.

Thus the statistics would look like this:

AC20 -> ROF (rate of fire per second) - .5 Damage - 20
AC10 -> ROF - 1 Damage - 10
AC5 -> ROF - 2 Damage - 5
AC2 -> ROF - 4 Damage - 2

Ultra AC20 -> ROF - 2.5 SPT (shells per trigger) - 2 Damage - 15
Ultra AC10 -> ROF - 2.5 SPT - 4 Damage - 5
Ultra AC5 -> ROF - 2.5 SPT - 8 Damage - 2
Ultra AC2 -> ROF - 2.5 SPT - 16 Damage - 0.5

What this does is provides the mech warrior with two options. They can go with the single shot ACs which will stick all the damage on the location in which they hit. Or they can opt for the Ultra versions which fires smaller caliber shells but will do more sustained damage if most of the shells hit over time. The Ultra ACs will also have a much better chance of landing on fast targets as you are placing more shots down field.

The regular ACs will fire single shots at a specific rate of fire. So AC20s will fire a shell once every 2 seconds while the AC2 will fire a shell once every quarter second, or 4 shells every second. Just hold the trigger and it will continue firing at it's specified ROF.

Ultra ACs will fire entire casettes or magazines each time the trigger is pulled and will be semi-auto. The AC10 will put 4 shells down field for each pull of the trigger but will unload a casette once every 2.5 seconds. Casettes are emptied at a rate of 2s once fired. So the AC5 will fire it's 8 shells in 2 seconds, or 4 shells every second, and then unload it's casette 0.5s after completing it's firing.

This will give a choice between having a single heavy hitting shot or a bunch of not so heavy hitting shots.

I would be extremely happy with a system like this.

Edited by Zyllos, 10 November 2011 - 12:49 PM.

[gregsolidus]

From what I'm reading it sounds like ACs would function like rifles in video games with a "clip" and reserve ammunition....It works.

[Zyllos]

gregsolidus, on 10 November 2011 - 12:48 PM, said:

From what I'm reading it sounds like ACs would function like rifles in video games with a "clip" and reserve ammunition....It works.

Where did you read this at? Or just from viewing the video?

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The trouble is that with a Hunchback you only have 1 ton of ammo in standard form - ie 5 shots before you slowly waddle away to try and reload and get killed by all the faster mechs with energy weapons. In anything but a close range 1v1 deathmatch you quickly get into trouble, even with protection from your lancemates.

[gregsolidus]

Its not in direct reference to your post,just the general idea of loading a cassette

[wolf74]

2nd time trying to post, 1st time web timed out
Warning CBT Solaris VII Data incoming, If you can't stand Tabletop game info Please Skip this Post, You have been warned.
/<CBT Data On>

I.S. Weapon only listed
From, Name, Damage Per shot (MAX DPS - Min DPS) (Recycle Times ranges)
( S7 ) AC/2, 2 ( 20 - 0.8 )( 0.1 - 2.5 sec)
( S7 ) AC/5, 5 ( 1.92 - 1 )( 2.6 - 5 sec)
( S7 ) AC/10, 10 ( 3.85 - 2 )( 2.6 - 5 sec)
( S7 ) AC/20, 20 ( 3.92 - 2.67 )( 5.1 - 7.5 sec)

(THB) LB-2x, 2 ( 0.77 - 0.4 )( 2.6 - 5 sec)
Guess LB-5x, 5 ( 1.92 - 1 )( 2.6 - 5 sec)
( S7 ) LB-10x, 10 ( 3.85 - 2 )( 2.6 - 5 sec)
(THB) LB-20x, 20 ( 2.63 - 2 )( 7.6 - 10 sec)
*Cluster Ammo, Shotgun shell Effect, One Pellet for each point of possible damage

(THB) Ultra AC/2, 2 ( 1.54 - 0.8 )( 2.6 - 5 sec)
( S7 ) Ultra AC/5, 5 ( 3.85 - 2 )( 2.6 - 5 sec)
(THB) Ultra AC/10, 10 ( 3.92 - 2.67 )( 5.1 - 7.5 sec)
(THB) Ultra AC/20, 20 ( 5.26 - 4 )( 7.6 - 10 sec)
Weapon needs a Toggle, between the fire modes, Dual Shot or Single Shot. In dual Shot the weapon will fire 2 round back to back about 0.1-0.5 sec apart.

Guess R-AC/2, 2 ( 2.35 - 1.6 )( 5.1 - 7.5 sec)
Guess R-AC/5, 5 ( 3.95 - 3 )( 7.6 - 10 sec)
Weapon needs a Multi-Toggle, 1 to 6 shot per trigger before a recycling time between shots .1-.4 sec apart.

Guess Light AC/2, 2 ( 0.77 - 0.4 )( 2.6 - 5 sec)
Guess Light AC/5, 5 ( 0.98 - 0.67 )( 5.1 - 7.5 sec)


DPS Calculation was using Max Fire Rates with all shell hitting (For Ultra it 2 shells, for RAC it 6)
S7 = Solaris Vii Book, THB= Tactical Handbook, Guess = No Printed Data Personal Best Guess
Note the Clan Auto-Cannon where listed in Solaris Reaches book and are Faster than the ones listed above)

CBT Turn = 10sec
Solaris VII Turn = 2.5sec
New RPG Turn = 5sec (have not got my Hard copy yet so I don't have it data yet)

/<CBT Data Off>
Yes I am a Old school CBT player who want a good sim. Yes I understand You can't Translate some of it. But what most of us CBT players what is a Good solid Base in the Battletech Universe. We do understand thing will have to change for game play reason to make it fun; But to help make us happier just simple list of X-Weapon was change from Z to B for Y reason. So we can make a small adjustment in our thought when we come only to play.

So you Young player - Video Game only Players, remember Mechwarrior would not be here without us OLD player keeping the faith for the pass 25years. So give us a small brake when we give Raw Data info to help you understand where many of us are coming from.

Edited by wolf74, 10 November 2011 - 01:19 PM.

[canned wolf]

Give AC's a sizable damage output bonus over lasers, then make them ammo hogs and set it up so that you can't always reload in between matches. The risk of being completely useless in the next match will balance out the extra damage. You can also control them with the expense of the ammo. For PVP make matches a best of four scenario with limited options for repair and reload in between, or just set it up so it works out that way.

All weapons should have a purpose on the field. Give people choices.