46 replies to this topic

[Postumus]

I know this was under consideration at one point. Specifically, some sort of penalty for equipping multiple, identical weapons on a 'mech above a certain number. Paul talked about this for streak launchers in the Weapon Balancing thread last year:

Quote

UPDATE (Nov 26,2012):


Just so you guys know, I'm not looking into nerfing damage or operation right now. This nerf should not directly affect people using 1 or 2 launchers. We are trying to look into ways of reducing efficiency when you try to boat these systems. We are still discussing the implications of some planned routes and again, I'll let you know what we start to move forward with.

I suggest that boating penalties should be looked at again, but for other, or all, weapon types. What specifically comes to mind is PPCs, as they are next in line to be fixed. Notice I say fixed, not buffed, as I'm a PPC fan, and I agree that they need some love. I'm only using PPCs as an example, there are other weapons this applies to - really, all weapons to a certain extent. Anyways, while one PPC is a good addition to a lot of builds, and 2-3 PPCs is something to base a build around (I.E. the Catapult K2, the Awesome 8Q), more than four PPCs is just getting overboard.

You can argue that builds which use four (or 5, or 6) PPCs are barely viable, in that they overheat every other shot, or even every shot, and must make sacrifices to accommodate the heat sinks, and that the minimum range makes it vulnerable. This is true, but you can still get an Assault class weapons platform with a bundle of armor that can do the equivalent of 2-3 AC/20s worth of pinpoint damage at greater than LRM range (1080 meters), with unlimited ammo, and these can even get two shots off before overheating (for a few seconds). A similar build is possible with a Large pulse boat. The lasers lose the max range, but also have no minimum range and can reliably kill light mechs at brawling range.

Now, I'm not a die hard anti-boating zealot. For the most part, the mechanics of mechlab insure that, in order to achieve the maximum in one area (speed, weapon range, armor, alpha strike, ammo, burst DPS, etc.), you must make sacrifices in one or more other metrics that are about equal to the advantage that you gain in your chosen area. This is great; however, I believe that there should be a reasonable limit to the "Advantage" or "Ability" that can be achieved through boating builds. I also feel that, in it's current form, mechlab does not provide these limits. Basically, instead of seeing steeply diminishing returns on the effectiveness of adding more and more identical weapons, providing the incentive to field a diverse set of weapons, the game is actually encouraging players to homogenize their arsenal. Why add a Large Laser on an Assault when you can two more Medium Lasers and some heat sinks or armor?

This is just an opinion/suggestion thread, so I'm not going to pull out any tables, graphs or equations to support my points. My suggestions are as follows:


TL&DR

Suggestions for Penalties on Equipping Multiple Identical Weapons

1. Enforce some sort of penalty on the use of multiple, identical weapons equipped on a single mech.

2. The penalty could be heat, or weight, or critical space, or even speed. The type of the penalty could be different depending on the type of weapon being stacked - for example, more than 4 large lasers or PPCs could trigger a heat penalty, whereas more than 3 SRM6 pods could trigger a weight or critical space penalty.

3. The penalty could be a combination of the above.

4. The number of weapons at which the penalty kicks in should be different for each weapon, and perhaps should not apply for specific weapons on specific mechs. For example, a swayback was born that way, and shouldn't be mocked or discriminated against.

5. The severity of the penalty could be different for different weight classes, types or variants.

6. The severity of the penalty could increase as more weapons are added beyond the threshold number.

I believe that this system would put a damper on some of the more egregious cheese boats out there, without artificially prohibiting their use. It would also provide an incentive to diversify weapon loadouts - if not across different types, then at least different weapons of the same type. As they say, variety is the spice of life. Or hot molten death, whatever.

Edited by Postumus, 29 January 2013 - 06:57 PM.

[Eddrick]

Nerfing weapon convergence for carrying multiple of the same weapon, would probably make the biggest differance. That way, multiple weapons of the same type are not hitting the same spot.

I believe, Boating does have it's own natural penalty. It specializes them to a point that they are easly countered.

I'm on the fence with the issue. I don't care either way.

Edited by Eddrick, 29 January 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[Postumus]

I like it, I'm adding convergence to the poll. As for specialization... yeah, if they're boating LRMs. Less so for direct fire weapons. I guess my point was that I, and apparently at some point the devs, felt that the degree of specialization or the hit taken to viability wasn't quite in line with the possible advantage gained by boating certain weapons, not that there were not any disadvantages to boating. You do make sacrifices to, uh, float your boat, I just think that some boats might be a little too viable.

Edited by Postumus, 29 January 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[Eddrick]

Postumus, on 29 January 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

As for specialization... yeah, if they're boating LRMs. Less so for direct fire weapons. I guess my point was that I, and apparently at some point the devs, felt that the degree of specialization or the hit taken to viability wasn't quite in line with the possible advantage gained by boating certain weapons, not that there were not any disadvantages to boating. You do make sacrifices to, uh, float your boat, I just think that some boats might be a little too viable.

Right. The real question is. How? If you nerf the weapon. It nerfs all users of the weapon. Maybe, nerf the offending Mech in question. Like, the 6 PPC Stalker. If you nerf it's heat thresh hold. Making it able to stand less heat before shutting down. People will have a harder time boating 6 PPCs and maybe even Lasers in that mech.

Personaly, I don't care if boating weapons gets nerfed or not. I prefer, to not over specialize.

Edited by Eddrick, 29 January 2013 - 03:13 PM.

[Drebin Cormack]

Personally I don't see the point in adding a deterrent to loading up like weapons. What comes to mind is 6 srm's, 4 lrm15's+ artemis, 9 medium laser, and the like. Doing so is a deterrent in and of itself. Srm boats are useless long range and lrm's are useless under their minimum range. Medium laser's are useless at long range and non er ppc's have a minimum range as well. You cant "boat" ballistics effectively as their too heavy and we have no mech suitable for it yet. I can see it now, a Dire Wolf or an equivalent with 4 gauss guns, brilliant. Penalizing a certain play style because the happen to do great in some matches and absolutely horrible in others doesn't make any sense, really.

[MWHawke]

You require BOTH votes to be cast before system can accept. Is this a loaded vote?

[Elder Thorn]

i am currently undecided on this.
i think IF any penalty, than it should not be so strong, that a build with (just an example) 4 PPCs suddenly becomes LESS efficient than a build with 3 PPCs.
The penalty should only apply to the 4th PPC, however, i don't know how to achieve that.

To clearify what i mean:
If, for example again, there would be a module that would increase your armor by 25%, and you put 2 of them on your mech, you would get +50% armor. So, if we apply a 'stacking penalty' here, we would decrease the effectiveness of the second module by 50%, thus also providing another 12,5 % instead of another 25%. So with 2 modules you would not get 50% bonus, but 37,5%.

However, (again) i don't know how to achieve that with weapons

[DeadlyNerd]

Your poll is broken and the answer is NO.

If you want to prevent cheese builds, you change the whole HP system. By adding penalties you're just nerfing other builds because they're inferior to cheese builds as it is.

[Max Fury]

I am on the fence on this one as well. I don’t see an issue with it other than an Alpha Strike or weapons fired at once.

For Lasers, if all the lasers are converged on a single point then maybe cut the damage dealt by 5% per added laser at the convergence point etc… 1x 100% 2x 195% 3x 285.5% 4x 371% 5x 452% 6x 530% etc... If you have four laser two on the arm and 2 on the torso, then you can have either 2 of 4 convergences. And do either two 195% damage on two spots or 371% on one.
The Logic would be you can’t heat up the target linearly faster. There is more heat being produced but not exactly double

For missiles for each swarm the potential to hit should either be reduced or
The Logic would be the first missile strike will cause pre-detonation of the next incoming missiles.

For ballistic same thing as missiles
The logic would be splash back causes a slight decrease in damage.

What all the really boils down to is that mech can’t absorb damage in a linearly fashion unless there is a break in the weapon type or the area being hit. However for this to really work, the convergence should not be limited to just the shooter, but rather anyone firing the same class of weapons and hitting the same target at the same time.

[Eddrick]

Elder Thorn, on 29 January 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

i am currently undecided on this.
i think IF any penalty, than it should not be so strong, that a build with (just an example) 4 PPCs suddenly becomes LESS efficient than a build with 3 PPCs.
The penalty should only apply to the 4th PPC, however, i don't know how to achieve that.

To clearify what i mean:
If, for example again, there would be a module that would increase your armor by 25%, and you put 2 of them on your mech, you would get +50% armor. So, if we apply a 'stacking penalty' here, we would decrease the effectiveness of the second module by 50%, thus also providing another 12,5 % instead of another 25%. So with 2 modules you would not get 50% bonus, but 37,5%.

However, (again) i don't know how to achieve that with weapons

Deminishing returns for use of the same thing. I have seen this work before in RPGs. I doesn't prevent stacking. It just reduses the effect of if.

[Bhael Fire]

I vote NO.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 30 May 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[Pvt Ortiz]

This poll is tricked :

[color=#B94A48][#10355] You must cast your vote in each question of the poll.[/color]

You need to answer both in order to complete the vote. change this

Edited by Pvt Ortiz, 29 January 2013 - 05:30 PM.

[Postumus]

Pvt Ortiz, on 29 January 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

This poll is tricked :

[color=#B94A48][#10355] You must cast your vote in each question of the poll.[/color]

You need to answer both in order to complete the vote. change this

Yeah that's not actually an option in the poll editor, not meant to be a trick question. Anyhow, I added a none option.

Eddrick, on 29 January 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

Diminishing returns for use of the same thing. I have seen this work before in RPGs. I doesn't prevent stacking. It just reduses the effect of if.

Spelling correction mine, but yeah thats the idea, diminishing returns from weapons stacked beyond a particular number based on the weapon, weapon type, mech, mech weight or variant. I don't like putting a blanket ban on boating, or say 'X mech can't use Y'.

Eddrick, on 29 January 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Right. The real question is. How? If you nerf the weapon. It nerfs all users of the weapon. Maybe, nerf the offending Mech in question. Like, the 6 PPC Stalker. If you nerf it's heat thresh hold. Making it able to stand less heat before shutting down. People will have a harder time boating 6 PPCs and maybe even Lasers in that mech.

Personaly, I don't care if boating weapons gets nerfed or not. I prefer, to not over specialize.

I'm not talking about nerfing a particular weapon, I think that the threshold for any penalty should be looked at on a case by case basis. Plus, this is a little disingenuous, because a majority of PPC users will never have more that 3 PPCs on their mechs. And why would you slap a nerf on a mech that would affect non-boat builds to try and stop boating?

Edited by Postumus, 29 January 2013 - 07:05 PM.

[ObsidianSpectre]

This is the wrong way to balance things. Fix balance at an individual components level, don't penalize people for builds other than the natural penalties that come with overspecialization. If something is unbalanced when you have 6 of them, then it's probably unbalanced when you only have 1, and having 6 just makes the imbalance more obvious.

[Capt Cole 117]

How does the poll have 2 yes votes, 7 no votes, and 18 votes for penaltys?

[focuspark]

If a weapon is unbalanced when boated then it's unbalanced un-boated as well. Fix the problem, don't make arbitrary rules about things.

Anyways, I really don't see what the issue is if somebody wants to use several of the same weapon type. My CPLT-C1 has 4 SRM6 and my A1 has 6 SRM6, it's not OP by any measure. A fast mech with medium laser can out range me easy.

[CancR]

No. Some mechs just boat. it's what they do. we shouldn't change decades of BT/MW cannon because one person can't kill a jenner F

[MustrumRidcully]

I voted No. Except that I think there should basically be no convergence at all. The only convergence in the game should be to ensure your arms are pointing at whatever you want to target. But that is completely independent on whether you use identical or different weapons.

[focuspark]

Convergence is there to add that "random" feeling to the attacks. It prevent it from being a game of "HEAD SHOT!!!" for those with better pings.

[MustrumRidcully]

focuspark, on 30 January 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Convergence is there to add that "random" feeling to the attacks. It prevent it from being a game of "HEAD SHOT!!!" for those with better pings.

No, convergence enables "Head Shot". It enables you to fire with pinpoint precision 7 medium lasers at the exact same spot.
Without convergence, these 7 medium lasers might fly parallel to each other and not be able to hit the same location at all.

What you are talking about is either delayed convergence - which means it takes time until the weapons converge at the right spot, or what happens when convergence is pointed at whatever at your mouse cursor and you're leading a shot with weapons that need leaing (not 7 medium lasers, but perhaps 2 Gauss Rifles).