21 replies to this topic

[FirstSeraph]

I was just wondering how PGI intends to implement Omnimechs within the game, if they're ever released at all, given that Omnimechs can equip pretty much anything they want without hardpoint limitations and therefore eliminating the need to purchase different variants. This also throws the Efficiency Unlocking system a bit out of whack, considering that it's based on unlocking efficiencies for multiple variants of a chassis before unlocking the next tier. Opinions on how they will/should implement Omnimechs?

[von Pilsner]

All we can offer is speculation.

[Syllogy]

Look for an announcement in September/October.

[FupDup]

Syllogy, on 19 June 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Look for an announcement in September/October.

They'll announce that they delayed the Clan implementation announcement another few months.

[SerEdvard]

Wild speculation here...

My guess is that omnimechs will be implemented with a similar hardpoint system as the IS mechs, but when you buy the omnimech you can switch to an alternate hardpoint layout anytime for a small c-bill fee (similar to equipping endo/FF/DHS/artemis). So you would only buy the omnimech once (prime variant) for a very large amount of c-bills, and get access to all of the different alternate configurations at the same time. To balance things slightly and stay true to omnimech lore, engines, structure, armor, etc are hardwired and unmodifiable. Heat sinks, BAP, ECM, etc could be modified though.

For example (numbers obviously made up)

<< Pay $28M C-bills to buy Mad Cat/Timberwolf PRIME>>

Locked equipment:
375 XL
10 DHS
Endo
FF

Prime Hardpoint Layout:
LA - 2x Energy
LT - 1x Missile, 1x Energy
CT - 2x Ballistic
RT - 1x Missile
RA - 2x Energy
5 DHS

<< Pay 1M C-bills to switch to Alternate Config A >>

Hardpoint layout switches to:
LA - 1x Energy
LT - 3x Energy
CT - 1x Energy
RT - 1x Missile
RA - 1x Energy

but equipment stays the same

<< Pay 1M C-bills to swtich to Alternate Config B or revert to PRIME >>

New hardpoint layout
Same equipment

etc
etc

[Vasces Diablo]

I would guess you buy prime version for a large amount of cbills and then buy the variant configs (read as "hard point layout") seperately for a low amount each.

[FirstSeraph]

Hmm, interesting. It seems like PGI is basing the C-Bill cost of different 'Mechs and their variants on the sarna.net/official Battletech prices. With that in mind, it seems like it's not unreasonable to assume that the Mad Cat will cost around $24 million C-Bills for the Prime Variant. I also haven't delved deeply enough in lore to be sure of what you're talking about when you say that

SerEdvard, on 19 June 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

To balance things slightly and stay true to omnimech lore, engines, structure, armor, etc are hardwired and unmodifiable. Heat sinks, BAP, ECM, etc could be modified though.

In lore is it only Omnimechs that can't modify their engines/structure/armor? Or is that something that's true for all Battlemechs, but just something that you think should be introduced to balance out Omnimechs a little more? If it's something that's only true for Omnimechs, fine, but if not I was thinking that instead of having hardpoints, we could instead have people buy the Omnimech chassis (which seems to cost generally between 2x-3x what a normal Battlemech chassis does), and anytime they want to change the chassis in 'Mechlab, add a fee of $1 million or so C-Bills to the final purchasing cost of whatever modifications they make every time they make them so that it's not a decision that's made lightly. It still doesn't solve the problem of how Omnimechs fit into the current Mech tree system though, admittedly.

Edited by FirstSeraph, 20 June 2013 - 04:07 AM.

[Kinilan]

Remember that Battletech lore has only ever been a guideline for Mechwarrior play.

It's no more complicated to change the engine in an OmiMech then it is a normal Mech. Not that it isn't complicated. We just don't have to worry about refit costs/time for weapons, the engine and some systems and only cost on the four upgrades. Not that lore really matters. And not all weapon points on an Omni are modular. For example it wouldn't be possible to throw two AC20s into the shoulders of a Timber Wolf without a redesign of the whole mech. Were as the arms are where the omnipods are mounted so weapons in those spots could be switched out for another pod system quite easily. But not standard weaponry.

My prediction is that we'll still see variants like we have with the IS mechs and they will have the standard hard point limitations, but they will also have omni slots that can fit either: Anything. Anything within a size/weight limit. A lmited subset of omnipod weaponry, or a mix of those three. We'll be able to change the engines and systems and all that other jazz. Omnis will just have more flexibility within a variant balanced by a lower number of weapon slots compared to IS variants.

[Blue Footed Booby]

SerEdvard, on 19 June 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Wild speculation here...

My guess is that omnimechs will be implemented with a similar hardpoint system as the IS mechs, but when you buy the omnimech you can switch to an alternate hardpoint layout anytime for a small c-bill fee (similar to equipping endo/FF/DHS/artemis). So you would only buy the omnimech once (prime variant) for a very large amount of c-bills, and get access to all of the different alternate configurations at the same time. To balance things slightly and stay true to omnimech lore, engines, structure, armor, etc are hardwired and unmodifiable. Heat sinks, BAP, ECM, etc could be modified though.

...

Are there any non-hero mechs with remotely sane stock engines? Literally the only mech I have where I haven't swapped out the engine is my Firebrand. The stock engine (and the stock builds in general) are just...not good. If they do this then clan mechs are going to be at a major disadvantage...though this would be a damn sight better than them being supperior to IS in every way.

[Xeren KelDar]

Blue Footed Booby, on 21 June 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

Are there any non-hero mechs with remotely sane stock engines? Literally the only mech I have where I haven't swapped out the engine is my Firebrand. The stock engine (and the stock builds in general) are just...not good. If they do this then clan mechs are going to be at a major disadvantage...though this would be a damn sight better than them being supperior to IS in every way.

Not really, taking the Mad Cat as an example it mounts a 375 XL stock. That's 81 kph in MWO stock...and it has 28 tons of pod space for weapons. It should also come stock with 460 armor in MWO so that 28 tons of pod space, considering clan tech is lighter, can go a long way. Most clan mechs are built along the same lines, taking advantage of the advanced tech to make the mechs move faster and hit harder than the Inner Sphere could achieve.

[General Taskeen]

I've speculated enough at this point. I just want the current game to be balanced.

[SerEdvard]

Blue Footed Booby, on 21 June 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

Are there any non-hero mechs with remotely sane stock engines? Literally the only mech I have where I haven't swapped out the engine is my Firebrand. The stock engine (and the stock builds in general) are just...not good. If they do this then clan mechs are going to be at a major disadvantage...though this would be a damn sight better than them being supperior to IS in every way.

I didn't mean to imply that in TT lore that omnimechs couldn't get their engines swapped, just that it's their weapons that are designed to be modular not the engines, armor, etc. I thought this would be a fun and interesting way of balancing out the incredible flexibility of omnimech weapon configurations.

The stock clan mechs in this time period are actually quite fast across the board. The light mechs are typically above 120 kph, mediums 90-100 kph, heavies 80-90 kph, and assaults 60-80 kph. The stock Dasher/Fire Moth (20 tons) goes an incredible 162 kph (216 kph w/ MASC).

[Donnie Silveray]

I believe that the semi-lore based method of restricting engine and structure will be implemented and having omni exchangable hardpoints. As a budding game developer if I was presented with this option to make a whole new faction distinct in the face of what we current have, work be damned I'm doing it. It's a big way to make the clan mechs distinct and one that offers huge gameplay options in Clan vs IS battles and builds. There is a lot of potential in this as a gameplay mechanic and a balancing mechanic, so I'm rather hopeful they'll implement this.

[Gaan Cathal]

Making unmodifiable engines and armour would merely mean that some Clan mechs would be DoA. The Hellbringer, for example, is hilariously under-armoured for use in MWO.

What I anticipate happening is that they work just like current mechs with "Alt. Config" replacing "Variant". Not only is this the easiest route to take from a design perspective it's also the most sensible IMO because you're not adding yet another element to a precarious balance process, particularly one that doesn't affect the entire faction evenly (I.e. omnis with good engines and armour would massively outclass ones without in MWO.). You can balance the superior firepower of Clans by giving them an on-field numbers disadvantage, that won't work unless their defences are allowed to be on par with IS mechs though.

For reference, a fully armoured Catapult in MWO (approximating for tonnage rounding adjustments) has thirteen tons of armour. The Hellbringer stock has eight. That's more than half again as much armour on the Catapult.

[FupDup]

Gaan Cathal, on 21 June 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Making unmodifiable engines and armour would merely mean that some Clan mechs would be DoA. The Hellbringer, for example, is hilariously under-armoured for use in MWO.

What I anticipate happening is that they work just like current mechs with "Alt. Config" replacing "Variant". Not only is this the easiest route to take from a design perspective it's also the most sensible IMO because you're not adding yet another element to a precarious balance process, particularly one that doesn't affect the entire faction evenly (I.e. omnis with good engines and armour would massively outclass ones without in MWO.). You can balance the superior firepower of Clans by giving them an on-field numbers disadvantage, that won't work unless their defences are allowed to be on par with IS mechs though.

For reference, a fully armoured Catapult in MWO (approximating for tonnage rounding adjustments) has thirteen tons of armour. The Hellbringer stock has eight. That's more than half again as much armour on the Catapult.

Another thing is that crazy Omni restrictions would also shaft Inner Sphere Omnis in the long run (if the game lasts long enough to get them) because the majority of them come stock with XL engines...the Sunder and Avatar would be DOA (although smaller ones like the Owens would do just fine).

[Adridos]

FupDup, on 22 June 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Another thing is that crazy Omni restrictions would also shaft Inner Sphere Omnis in the long run (if the game lasts long enough to get them) because the majority of them come stock with XL engines...the Sunder and Avatar would be DOA (although smaller ones like the Owens would do just fine).

Then keep omnies Clan only... simple solution and well, there's not that many great IS omnies anways.

[FupDup]

Adridos, on 22 June 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

Then keep omnies Clan only... simple solution and well, there's not that many great IS omnies anways.

So Sunder, Avatar, and Owens would just be plain-Jane Battlemechs if the game lives long enough for their inclusion?

[Gaan Cathal]

FupDup, on 22 June 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

So Sunder, Avatar, and Owens would just be plain-Jane Battlemechs if the game lives long enough for their inclusion?

Or not get included. That said, running Omnis much like we do non-Omnis would keep their inclusion viable.

[Void2258]

FirstSeraph, on 19 June 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

I was just wondering how PGI intends to implement Omnimechs within the game, if they're ever released at all, given that Omnimechs can equip pretty much anything they want without hardpoint limitations and therefore eliminating the need to purchase different variants. This also throws the Efficiency Unlocking system a bit out of whack, considering that it's based on unlocking efficiencies for multiple variants of a chassis before unlocking the next tier. Opinions on how they will/should implement Omnimechs?

How about getting rid of the multi-chasis unlock system as pretty much everyone has been yelling at them to do since the closed beta started? That takes care of one part of the problem right there.

Edited by Void2258, 22 June 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Void2258, on 22 June 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

How about getting rid of the multi-chasis unlock system as pretty much everyone has been yelling at them to do since the closed beta started? That takes care of one part of the problem right there.

Just skimming the common recent threads I think that's a misrepresentation. Most threads I have read on it have posters in it arguing for retaining the system, and there's really not many threads arguing for it's removal full stop.