17 replies to this topic

[Chemie]

Currently, pulse weapons provide 20% extra damage and a slight benefit with a faster discharge time. I say slight because this may or may not be a benefit. If you stay on target the whole time, you need to stay there less time. However, if your cross-hairs drift off target, you have less time to get back on. A PPC is all or nothing...hit or miss. A pulse laser is something between a laser and a PPC in that you have more point damage potential but need to hit the target. For "less good" players, it may not be a benefit.

Anyway, benefit is 20% more damage and potential for more point damage.

Now the penalty/cost:

1. more weight
2. more heat
3. Half the range.

The reason these weapons are not used is that they suffer three penalties. Remember weight costs speed and/or heat (either less engine or less heat sinks). 1 ML + 1 HS is better than one MPL.

I propose pulse weapons only cost 1 and maybe 2 of above. PIck one of the above; max 2. A side benefit is it is easier to balance. Trade one benefit for one cost.

Say they are the same weight? Is 20% more damage worth half range and more heat? Now you have a great brawling weapon. You get this at the penalty of range. Seems reasonable. You can play with the heat amount between 0-20 for balance. I think you might be OK with no heat penalty given the range hit.

Say they were the same range but cost heat and weight? Again, a better compromise.

My point is pulse lasers will always suck as long as you stack all three penalties to them.

(Also, this says why PPC are OP since they have larger damage, AND larger range AND point damage and only pay with slightly more heat and weight than LL.)

For every benefit, give them ONE downside and balance off this.

[Livewyr]

We're Sorry, due to ambiguous or unknown policies at PGI, your request is denied.

Have a nice day!

[mindwarp]

They won't change the weight - it would muck up stock designs. Whether this is right or not is a debate for a different thread.

I think your points are correct there. In tabletop, pulse lasers had a significant accuracy bonus that just doesn't show up here to balance the extra heat and weight. So in MWO they end up with too many drawbacks and not enough pluses. Lowered heat and increased range while still keeping them shorter ranged and more damaging than standard lasers would probably be enough. This would give the choice between long range, lower damage and short range, high damage.

[Mindwipe]

To be fair, pulse lasers are fairly balanced in the TT version as they give a very important increase to accuracy in exchange for weight and range. Sadly that isn't important in a game where maintaining a 95% hit rate with lasers is pretty easy. Their reduced time on target is nice over lasers, or at least it's valuable to me on my light mechs. That said I agree they are overall not really worth their overall costs compared to regular lasers.

The just completed balancing of the pulse lasers was to make them consistent to each other in preparation of a more thorough balance pass. We'll just have to wait to see what the devs do with them. Since tonnage and crit size can't really change due to TT limitations, I'd wager something will be done to balance them to lasers.

[Captain Katawa]

They need a rework.
The'd probably be viable if they were superior in closer combat like

• Shorter range
  
• Stronger fall off after effective range
  
• but better damage with same heat within effective range

Or the'd work if PULSE was actually a pulse dealing it's damade within 0.5 second making it almost as consentrated as PPC.
If you deal 10 damage with regular laser some damage does to side torsos and arms because mechs move and only part of it is hitting vital hitboxes. If pilses were firing much faster them the'd deal more damage to exact hibox you're aiming at.
This'd make them viable and superior for close combat.

[EmperorMyrf]

Currently, the advantages of each category:

Range - L (except SPL/SL)
Damage - PL
DPS - PL
Heat - L
HPS - L
DPH - L
Weight - L
DPS/t - L
Beam Length - PL

It's clear that basic lasers are superior to pulse lasers overall, with twice as many advantages as PL's. This was the case in table-top, but the extra to-hit chance made it worthwhile. All that's needed now is a change in weapon behavior that really gives the pulse lasers an edge over lasers in certain situations.

Right now, pulse lasers are only used when there is some extra tonnage, but not any extra energy hardpoints (ex. 6 tons, 4 hardpoints = 2ML + 2MPL) and that's about it. Hopefully this upcoming fix to pulse lasers really shrinks down that beam length to about .25s to justify their use instead of making players feel like they have to take them to fill out their tonnage.

Also the ML and MPL both need a very slight buff to put them in line. Currently the LL is the absolute best (based on math, not just opinion) laser, and there's really no reason to choose otherwise besides tonnage restrictions.

[Victor Morson]

While the LPL broke, the SPL is considerably better right now. Where it's at, we have pilots actually using them over medium lasers in fast 'mechs! I really, really hope PGI doesn't nerf it when they adjust the LPL.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

I have been thinking on this, how to make pulse lasers accurate and useful...

My idea...

Take the medium pulse laser, it does its damage over 0.75 seconds. That is good but it could be better.

Instead of the damage split over the full 0.75 seconds, break it up. For the first 0.25 second the beam starts pulsing but does little damage, this is the split second for the pilot to correct his aim. The entire damage would then be applied in the half-second between the 0.26 and 0.75 mark.

Now you have a quick moment to adjust your aim and the rest of the beam will be more concentrated.

[hyperfluous]

pulse lasers might have a place as a click and hold type weapon like machine guns and flamers with heat as the only cool down

[Shae Starfyre]

I almost exclusively use pulse weapons on energy hard points and have no issues with the penalties. Just my take.

[aniviron]

Chemie, on 24 June 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

Currently, pulse weapons provide 20% extra damage and a slight benefit with a faster discharge time. I say slight because this may or may not be a benefit. If you stay on target the whole time, you need to stay there less time. However, if your cross-hairs drift off target, you have less time to get back on. A PPC is all or nothing...hit or miss. A pulse laser is something between a laser and a PPC in that you have more point damage potential but need to hit the target. For "less good" players, it may not be a benefit.

Anyway, benefit is 20% more damage and potential for more point damage.

Now the penalty/cost:

1. more weight
2. more heat
3. Half the range.

The reason these weapons are not used is that they suffer three penalties. Remember weight costs speed and/or heat (either less engine or less heat sinks). 1 ML + 1 HS is better than one MPL.

I propose pulse weapons only cost 1 and maybe 2 of above. PIck one of the above; max 2. A side benefit is it is easier to balance. Trade one benefit for one cost.

Say they are the same weight? Is 20% more damage worth half range and more heat? Now you have a great brawling weapon. You get this at the penalty of range. Seems reasonable. You can play with the heat amount between 0-20 for balance. I think you might be OK with no heat penalty given the range hit.

Say they were the same range but cost heat and weight? Again, a better compromise.

My point is pulse lasers will always suck as long as you stack all three penalties to them.

(Also, this says why PPC are OP since they have larger damage, AND larger range AND point damage and only pay with slightly more heat and weight than LL.)

For every benefit, give them ONE downside and balance off this.

Agreed on all counts. While I think the most practical/easiest solution is to balance pulse lasers by reducing heat, increasing damage, or reducing beam time, as you say, I would rather see some of the other suggestions on the forums implemented. Even if you do make pulse lasers good or useful, right now they function more or less identically to regular lasers, i.e. a continuous hitscan beam followed by a cooldown. Making pulse lasers behave in a distinct fashion from regular lasers gives not just an advantage with the numbers game for situations, but also a different tactical usage, which is nice to spice up gameplay. One of the better suggestions I have heard is to let pulse lasers fire continuously while constantly building up heat, until the trigger is released- but there are lots of good suggestions in the Pulse Lasers Overhaul thread from a week or two back.

[AnnoyingCat]

think about it, they are wub wub dub-step guns

[Otto Cannon]

It's always the range that puts me off. If the range was the same as regular lasers but they weighed more and fired hotter I'd use them more.

[jakucha]

EmperorMyrf, on 24 June 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Currently, the advantages of each category:

Range - L (except SPL/SL)
Damage - PL
DPS - PL
Heat - L
HPS - L
DPH - L
Weight - L
DPS/t - L
Beam Length - PL

It's clear that basic lasers are superior to pulse lasers overall, with twice as many advantages as PL's. This was the case in table-top, but the extra to-hit chance made it worthwhile. All that's needed now is a change in weapon behavior that really gives the pulse lasers an edge over lasers in certain situations.

Right now, pulse lasers are only used when there is some extra tonnage, but not any extra energy hardpoints (ex. 6 tons, 4 hardpoints = 2ML + 2MPL) and that's about it. Hopefully this upcoming fix to pulse lasers really shrinks down that beam length to about .25s to justify their use instead of making players feel like they have to take them to fill out their tonnage.

Also the ML and MPL both need a very slight buff to put them in line. Currently the LL is the absolute best (based on math, not just opinion) laser, and there's really no reason to choose otherwise besides tonnage restrictions.

I pretty much use a large pulse or two because I have extra tonnage and they work out well for me, but it would be good for PL to be buffed in a way so people would make builds specifically for them if it suits their playstyle.

Edited by jakucha, 24 June 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[Nauht]

Y'all must have not read the June 11 announcement where it was stated that pulse lasers are getting reworked and we're only seeing the start of it.

Lets reserve judgment until we see what they do with it.

[Chemie]

No I saw it so this is the point of my post. Re work so there are not 3 penalties for 1 strength

[Keifomofutu]

Nauht, on 24 June 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Y'all must have not read the June 11 announcement where it was stated that pulse lasers are getting reworked and we're only seeing the start of it.

Lets reserve judgment until we see what they do with it.

I don't trust a balance team that thought it necessary to give a niche weapon like an LPL a nerf for no other reason than "we wanted to balance an incredible large number of three weapons with some kind of formula that probably won't work anyway... eventually." They put that nerf through knowing full well the LPL would suck afterward. Judgement not reserved.

Keep up the negative feedback on the weapon group and make it loud. Its the only way to get PGI's attention these days. If we didn't keep complaining about flamers and mgs then they'd probably stop buffing them. Same with pulse.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 24 June 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[Chemie]

that's the funny part. They could have said "we set them equal and then tweaked" but instead "we set them equal and will eventually tweak" Why? Why do half the job? Why not leave until you are ready?