67 replies to this topic

[Nauht]

Sybreed, on 20 June 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

this doesn't fix anything though. Even with heat penalties, that alpha would have still hit him dead center and killed him in 1 salvo.

Weapon boating alone won't fix it but combined with the proposed damage to internals, well let's see how that playes out first before saying it doesnt work.

Right now a 6 ppc stalker can fire one and a half times before overheating. With the changes, he'll definitely shutdown and cause damage to himself. Dont think anyone's gonna go that build. We'll see though.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Nauht, on 20 June 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

Weapon boating alone won't fix it but combined with the proposed damage to internals, well let's see how that playes out first before saying it doesnt work.

Right now a 6 ppc stalker can fire one and a half times before overheating. With the changes, he'll definitely shutdown and cause damage to himself. Dont think anyone's gonna go that build. We'll see though.

No, that WON'T fix this particular problem. Like you said, one and a half times. That means one shot, kills his Blackjack and the stalker suffers no penalties, even if you add the boating penalty, and the stalker shuts down...it still won't hit 150% and take internal damage.

While the Blackjack is still dead.

That's why you need to lower the heat maximum and increase dissipation. While adding a host of issues for running hot and having damage occur for over 100% heat, not 150%.

[Nauht]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 June 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

I'm a terrible player, and even I can see it's stupid.

And PGI's proposed changes do NOTHING to fix it.

Before and after the changes, due to not changing the heat cap, a Stalker can still alpha 6 PPC's and have no real consequences.

Halve the heat cap, double dissipation, get rid of instant perfect convergence, and add things like lowered movement speed, blurred vision and minor damage from running constantly hot.

Done, no more PPC boats and actual skill to run an AC/20 x2 mech.

Did you read the june update post? You'll take damage now when you overheat. Together with th boating penalties a 6 ppc stalker will do more damage to himself or not be able to fire all 6 as it does now. He'll be shutdown most of the game and thats fine by me.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Nauht, on 20 June 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Did you read the june update post? You'll take damage now when you overheat. Together with th boating penalties a 6 ppc stalker will do more damage to himself or not be able to fire all 6 as it does now. He'll be shutdown most of the game and thats fine by me.

No, you didn't read it. You take damage when you get to 150%.

That stalker could fire, kill his blackjack and take no damage.

Fixes nothing.

[Nauht]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 June 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

No, that WON'T fix this particular problem. Like you said, one and a half times. That means one shot, kills his Blackjack and the stalker suffers no penalties, even if you add the boating penalty, and the stalker shuts down...it still won't hit 150% and take internal damage.

While the Blackjack is still dead.

That's why you need to lower the heat maximum and increase dissipation. While adding a host of issues for running hot and having damage occur for over 100% heat, not 150%.

If that stalker hit him from a distance while not moving he deserves the kill. Some people are just good at aiming.
What happens when you close the distance and start brawling? I do that regularly when I see a 4+ ppc boat.

They're my favourite type of meat cos they 100% shutdown every time.

Besides lets see what the changes do first. I'm betting it'll effectively kill off the 6ppc stalker.
IF and remember thats an IF, they keep the ppc boating number to 3 then that wont stop the 3ppc/gr combo but those don't hurt as much.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Nauht, on 20 June 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

If that stalker hit him from a distance while not moving he deserves the kill. Some people are just good at aiming.
What happens when you close the distance and start brawling? I do that regularly when I see a 4+ ppc boat.

They're my favourite type of meat cos they 100% shutdown every time.

Besides lets see what the changes do first. I'm betting it'll effectively kill off the 6ppc stalker.
IF and remember thats an IF, they keep the ppc boating number to 3 then that wont stop the 3ppc/gr combo but those don't hurt as much.

You are now changing the argument.

Due to perfect convergence, a 6 PPC stalker can one shot any mech, moving or not. And have no penalty. Also due to the model of the stalker odds are it didn't even have to expose most of itself to do it.

I believe the OP said his blackjack moves at about 115kph.

It's bad for the game when a medium mech can get one shotted from 500m with no recourse.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 20 June 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[Roland]

Quote

Most of the actually skilled players don't much like the hexa-ppc meta because it doesn't actually require any skill to manage.

Most of the actually skilled players don't like the 6 PPC stalker because IT ISN'T A GOOD MECH.

[Felbombling]

Prosperity Park, on 20 June 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

They are adding a sliding heat scale that will apply additional heat whenever a Mech fires more than 3 PPCs at at time. More information is available here: http://mwomercs.com/...-112013/unread/

Also, it's known that Inner Sphere XL engines are vulnerable to destruction from the loss of a single Side Torso, and so Medium Mecghs with XL's should try to be moving at least 85kph whenever not in cover, if possible.

• How do you say should convergence and Alpha Striking be addressed?

Prosperity, first let me say that you have the most unenviable job right now... defending the current meta game and the fix for it coming down the pipeline.

I have to feel sympathy for you right now, because I know that at some point in the near future, you are going to feel the need to come in here and soothe another customer regarding getting one-shot with an 85-ton Warhawk, mounting 2x ER PPC, 2x Large Pulse Laser and 2x ER Large Laser.

I can see it now...

Prosperity Park, on 20 June 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

They are adding a sliding heat scale that will apply additional heat whenever a Mech fires 5 or more heavy weapons at a time. I understand your frustration, but this was an unforeseen circumstance! Crafty players will find ways to skirt the system, such as the additional heat penalty whenever 3 or more PPC was introduced.

Also, it's known that Inner Sphere XL engines are vulnerable to destruction from the loss of a single Side Torso, and so Medium Mechs with XL's should try to be moving at least 85kph whenever not in cover, if possible.

• How do you say should convergence and Alpha Striking be addressed?

Edited by StaggerCheck, 20 June 2013 - 05:12 PM.

[tenderloving]

Prosperity Park, on 20 June 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

They are adding a sliding heat scale that will apply additional heat whenever a Mech fires more than 3 PPCs at at time. More information is available here: http://mwomercs.com/...-112013/unread/

Also, it's known that Inner Sphere XL engines are vulnerable to destruction from the loss of a single Side Torso, and so Medium Mecghs with XL's should try to be moving at least 85kph whenever not in cover, if possible.

If you'd like to post suggestions about curbing this kind of event, then that'd be fine; There are many threads discussing convergence and Alphas. However,
this kind of field experience followed by a threat to walk away form the game doesn't really lend to the formation of solutions.

• How do you say should convergence and Alpha Striking be addressed?

Would you mind explaining how the sliding heat scale will prevent the scenario that OP laid out?

[Mazzyplz]

Prosperity Park, on 20 June 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

They are adding a sliding heat scale that will apply additional heat whenever a Mech fires more than 3 PPCs at at time. More information is available here: http://mwomercs.com/...-112013/unread/

Also, it's known that Inner Sphere XL engines are vulnerable to destruction from the loss of a single Side Torso, and so Medium Mecghs with XL's should try to be moving at least 85kph whenever not in cover, if possible.

If you'd like to post suggestions about curbing this kind of event, then that'd be fine; There are many threads discussing convergence and Alphas. However,
this kind of field experience followed by a threat to walk away form the game doesn't really lend to the formation of solutions.

• How do you say should convergence and Alpha Striking be addressed?

too bad this doesn't address ac40 jagers wrecking this same BJ pilot in no time.
not a good solution.

[FupDup]

StaggerCheck, on 20 June 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

I have to feel sympathy for you right now, because I know that at some point in the near future, you are going to feel the need to come in here and soothe another customer regarding getting one-shot with an 85-ton Warhawk, mounting 2x ER PPC, 2x Large Pulse Laser and 2x ER Large Laser.

That's nothing compared to the "Ghetto Hellstar" that people (namely myself ) are going to rig out of a Dire Wolf (or maybe even Warhawk).

[tenderloving]

Nauht, on 20 June 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Did you read the june update post? You'll take damage now when you overheat. Together with th boating penalties a 6 ppc stalker will do more damage to himself or not be able to fire all 6 as it does now. He'll be shutdown most of the game and thats fine by me.

So firing 6 PPCs simultaneously will do 60+ damage to the mech that fired them? Even if the Stalker shuts down after 1 alpha, he still killed another mech. Best case scenario where an enemy mech kills the shut down Stalker, both teams are back to where they started.

[TB Azrael]

Prosperity Park, on 20 June 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

They are adding a sliding heat scale that will apply additional heat whenever a Mech fires more than 3 PPCs at at time. More information is available here: http://mwomercs.com/...-112013/unread/

• How do you say should convergence and Alpha Striking be addressed?

Oh I don't know how about all the many threads in these forums talking about (with good/correct ideas) about how AS and convergence should be addressed - and yet never a mod reply or any indication they are taking them into consideration. No, what we get is this joke patch on the heat scale - you really think that waiting a whole half a second between firing groups of 3 ppcs will make a difference? If you do I have some land in Florida I want to sell you.

[DocBach]

JSparrowist, on 20 June 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

I'm even sicker of being hit and nothing registering. No sound, no shake, nothing...I look at my mechs paper doll only to find that half my armor is gone with no indication of when or where. THAT problem is nearly game breaking for me.

Nothing like seeing a group of PPC bolts go over you high and left and you think "hell yeah, dodged that one!"

....then seeing your right arm disappear from the paper doll.

[Suko]

Mazzyplz, on 20 June 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

too bad this doesn't address ac40 jagers wrecking this same BJ pilot in no time.
not a good solution.

The AC40 Jagger is kind of lame, but it rarely results in instant death like the 6 PPC STK.

Edited by ShadowVFX, 20 June 2013 - 04:58 PM.

[Roland]

Mazzyplz, on 20 June 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

too bad this doesn't address ac40 jagers wrecking this same BJ pilot in no time.
not a good solution.

Actually, it totally might, if they simply add the heat penalty to dual AC20 builds for any mech that carries more than one of them.

Dual AC20's are actually quite hot already, and running really hot in an ammo based build can be dangerous, especially if they start making you take internal damage regardless of whether you overrode the shutdown or not.

[TB Azrael]

Roland, on 20 June 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

Most of the actually skilled players don't like the 6 PPC stalker because IT ISN'T A GOOD MECH.

Actually I have to call a bit bogus on that. I've seen many a good play use a 6 PPC/ERPPC stalker and just own with it, because they know how to shoot, where to shoot and how to use it. As well, I see a lot of unskilled use it so they can feel tough - these are the ones you find bragging about it during the drop.

[Mazzyplz]

ShadowVFX, on 20 June 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

The AC40 Jagger is kind of lame, but it rarely results in instant death like the 6 PPC STK.

kind of lame? let's see, ac40 jager can do 120 damage in 9 seconds.
it doesn't shut down.

a ppc stalker can do 60, shut down, and then 60, shutdown.

i'd say it's on par or the jager is actually worse cause it can keep moving

[FupDup]

TB Azrael, on 20 June 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

Actually I have to call a bit bogus on that. I've seen many a good play use a 6 PPC/ERPPC stalker and just own with it, because they know how to shoot, where to shoot and how to use it. As well, I see a lot of unskilled use it so they can feel tough - these are the ones you find bragging about it during the drop.

4 ERPPC is usually much more optimal than 6 PPC despite the smaller alpha.

Edited by FupDup, 20 June 2013 - 05:01 PM.

[Roland]

FupDup, on 20 June 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

4 ERPPC is usually much more optimal than 6 PPC despite the smaller alpha.

Exactly. And good players know that, because it's obvious.

You are saving 14 tons which can make the 4 PPC's you have far more efficient. The 6 PPC variant has one good alpha strike, and then after that point it's offensive capability is garbage compared to the 4PPC variant.

And 4 PPC's is enough to one shot a mech through the head already.