12 replies to this topic

[Rhent]

So far, PGI has been extremely reluctant to admit that they have created a significant issue with Alpha damage. It only took PGI 6 months to admit that "gee ECM is screwed up our bad", so don't expect a quick fix to PPC/Gauss/AC20 death in 2 shots, hell 1 shot in some cases.

Just start running light mechs and cap win. Don't even bother engaging in a fight. I've done the sniper role, and frankly popping in and out of cover repeatedly to fire without being fired back on until you slip up and someone finally does get a bead on you and then kills you, its lame.

Meanwhile, if you pick a fast light and cap OR hunt single mechs you generally can avoid PPC/Gauss/AC20 death by moving too fast at close range for them to hit you.

If all of a sudden there was a great increase in cap wins as protest, well their churn rate would increase (who wants to play cap warrior online?). Not saying its a great way to play, but it is a good way to protest the completely screwed up attempt PGI is pulling off for PPC weapon balance. Go to the command chair and read the post. Everyone will be running PPC's and Gauss and we will be right back to the same problem. The devs fix WILL NOT WORK.

[Storm Khan]

I agree with the huge Alpha damage issue. Last couple of days, experienced twice where I had my mech destroyed in 1 shot from PPC+gauss or dual AC20s thru the torso. I was piloting lights at the time and they had max armor and was totally undamaged too. And I was not exactly standing still either. The game has been repeatedly been "enhanced" to more and more favour heavy and assault mechs from the large volume of complaints against the lighter weight classes with lights and mediums become less and less viable. The jump jet reticle shake being an obvious one in recent memory. PGI, stop biasing the game based on the loudest minority's complaints. If more content was released instead of constantly "tweaking" existing stuff I think there would be a lot less complaints like several more mechs, introduce the clans, more maps, other weapon systems (eg Arrow IV, Rockets - a periphery state tech I think) and so on.

[Syllogy]

Pro Tip: It takes a very long time to get telemetry and from that, solutions. From there, it takes time to program, test, debug, and re-test.

The whole "ERMAGERD! PGI took 6 months to fix ECM!" thing is nowhere close to the truth, and in fact, changes were being made less than 30 days after release.

Use empirical evidence, a level head, and some actual solutions before flying off the handle saying "ERMAGERD! PGI can't fix PPCs because they are terrabad at their jobs and I should be a game designer without any experience or training.... ERMAGERD!!"

Edited by Syllogy, 24 June 2013 - 05:04 AM.

[Ralgas]

Syllogy, on 24 June 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

Pro Tip: It takes a very long time to get telemetry and from that, solutions. From there, it takes time to program, test, debug, and re-test.

The whole "ERMAGERD! PGI took 6 months to fix ECM!" thing is nowhere close to the truth, and in fact, changes were being made less than 30 days after release.

Use empirical evidence, a level head, and some actual solutions before flying off the handle saying "ERMAGERD! PGI can't fix PPCs because they are terrabad at their jobs and I should be a game designer without any experience or training.... ERMAGERD!!"

^^Not to mention that most gaming communities tends to whine 1st and look for counters after the don't get their way. It's also amazing how many times issues with factors outside of pgi's control gets them hammered as terribads while they have to get telemetry on exactly what's going wrong and for whom.

[MaddMaxx]

Given the Lightest Assault Mech has 494 points of armor, I am not totally sold on this HIGH Alpha damage issue. Let's just assume the 6 PPC Stalker is a Urban legend and not a practical build. If you have never driven one, do so for 10 games and please report back you results.

Thus we are left with the 5 PPC (50pt. Alpha = ultimately rare due to also being very Hot), 3 PPC + Gauss (45pt. Alpha), 4 PPC, (40pt. alpha), AC20 x 2 (40pt. close range Alpha), 3 PPC (30pt. Alpha) and that is about it right?

Some are proposing the SRM be brought back to 2.5 damage. The catapult A1 would then pack a whopping 6 x 6 x 2.5 = 90pt. Alpha strike. WFT.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 24 June 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Odins Fist]

Rhent, on 23 June 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

"One Way To Handle The High Alpha Damage Problem"

ANSWER: Ignore it... I can count on one hand how many times I have been "ONE SHOT", and yeah I wasn't happy about it, but it was also my fault for having the wrong part of my Mech turned towards the enemy..

So let's just nerf everything in an attempt to make everyone and everything equal/BLAND in MWO, and present it as a participation trophy to the entitlement/handout crowd. (facepalm)

Equality is a myth, a lofty ideal that hasn't worked since the beginning of human civilization, and intelligent thought.

Quote from the movie Caddyshack (Ted Kinight)....

Edited by Odins Fist, 24 June 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

MaddMaxx, on 24 June 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Given the Lightest Assault Mech has 494 points of armor, I am not totally sold on this HIGH Alpha damage issue. Let's just assume the 6 PPC Stalker is a Urban legend and not a practical build. If you have never driven one, do so for 10 games and please report back you results.

Thus we are left with the 5 PPC (50pt. Alpha = ultimately rare due to also being very Hot), 3 PPC + Gauss (45pt. Alpha), 4 PPC, (40pt. alpha), AC20 x 2 (40pt. close range Alpha), 3 PPC (30pt. Alpha) and that is about it right?

Some are proposing the SRM be brought back to 2.5 damage. The catapult A1 would then pack a whopping 6 x 6 x 2.5 = 90pt. Alpha strike. WFT.

Yeah, because the most distributed alpha in the game (why it needs a damage increase) is totally comparable to the the most pinpoint alpha in the game. Good job completely ignoring the actual things that actually happen in the actual game there.

Odins Fist, on 24 June 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

ANSWER: Ignore it... I can count on one hand how many times I have been "ONE SHOT", and yeah I wasn't happy about it, but it was also my fault for having the wrong part of my Mech turned towards the enemy..

So let's just nerf everything in an attempt to make everyone and everything equal/BLAND in MWO, and present it as a participation trophy to the entitlement/handout crowd. (facepalm)

Hurf-durf. You're defending a bland meta where anyone can do well because, hate to break it to you buddy, pinpoint high alpha build have a skill floor somewhere in the basement. They are not hard. Doing well in them is not impressive. Point+click. Lead a little for slow motion of a huge target. Doesn't exactly require pr0skillz.

Odins Fist, on 24 June 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Equality is a myth, a lofty ideal that hasn't worked since the beginning of human civilization, and intelligent thought.

[random hollywood clip justifying keeping millions of people in poverty, dying of preventable disease and struggling to make ends meet because a small percentage absolutely have to spend the average wage for a year on one suit]

[REDACTED]

Edited by Destined, 24 June 2013 - 12:34 PM.
Removed personal insults

[GODzillaGSPB]

Seriously though, they have to be blind if they don't see it. Assaults and high-alpha-damage rule. Sporting and firing 4 large lasers together or 4 ppcs is normal, which it never was in the MechWarrior and BattleTech universe. If you were so naive as to review the game from that perspective it would practically be ruined by now. Absolutely ruined.

Now the question is: What if PGI wants that? We got so far into the mess, wouldn't it be logical to just leave it as is? The high-alpha-players are quite happy with the game, now aren't they? Just gotta get more of them and --> win.

Sooner or later it's time to move on I guess.

[Hillslam]

There is no High Alpha problem in the game.
Symptom. Not the disease.
Design problems exist with the build mechanism for loading weapons onto the chassis.


There is a high whining problem in the posting player base, however.

Edited by Hillslam, 24 June 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[Odins Fist]

Gaan Cathal, on 24 June 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

Hurf-durf. You're defending a bland meta where anyone can do well because, hate to break it to you buddy, pinpoint high alpha build have a skill floor somewhere in the basement. They are not hard. Doing well in them is not impressive. Point+click. Lead a little for slow motion of a huge target. Doesn't exactly require pr0skillz.

You know what's even more Hurf-durf and bland..?? Participation Trophies.

F.Y.I., every Video Game is Point+Click

Gaan Cathal, on 24 June 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

Also, wouldn't **** on you if you were on fire you waste of flesh.

LOL... Tryhard's so funny

Edited by Odins Fist, 24 June 2013 - 11:32 AM.

[Roland]

Quote

You're defending a bland meta where anyone can do well because, hate to break it to you buddy, pinpoint high alpha build have a skill floor somewhere in the basement. They are not hard. Doing well in them is not impressive. Point+click. Lead a little for slow motion of a huge target. Doesn't exactly require pr0skillz.

There are arguments against the high-alpha meta, but this is not one of them.

The idea that high-alpha strikes impose a low skill floor is nonsensical, generally perpetuated by people who are specifically not good enough to compete at high skill levels with that meta, because their inabilty to aim precludes them from success.

Simplification of it to "point and click" illustrates exactly the lack of understanding of the system. Certainly, it's point and click if you're merely trying to land a shot on a target somewhere, but that's really not good enough to compete against the best pilots.

The best pilots aren't going to be going for simply shooting your mech somewhere. They are going to be hitting a single component, over and over again, until you are dead. And unless you are good, then you aren't going to be able to do the same to them. You are going to die every time, because their superior aim will result in you dying very fast, while you spread some damage around on their mech.

Likewise, when they are able to consistently headshot you, and you can't do the same to them, then the skill floor isn't low.. it's that they are significantly better than you, and that results in you losing every single time.

As I said, there are arguments against a meta dominated by high alpha strikes, and changing that meta does not necessarily equate to dumbing down the game.. but your assertion that a high alpha strike meta somehow equates to things being easy is most definitely a nonsense statement.

In the current meta, when you go up against a better pilot, he is gonna stomp your face in. If you stand still at all, then you are virtually guaranteed to die instantly to a headshot.

And yes, being able to aim in a shooter is in fact a skill. It's actually one of the most important skills involved in a shooter. If you are going to try and say that hand-eye coordination "doesn't matter" or isn't a valid skill, then perhaps video games aren't for you.

[Otto Cannon]

Hillslam, on 24 June 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

There is no High Alpha problem in the game.
Symptom. Not the disease.
Design problems exist with the build mechanism for loading weapons onto the chassis.

Wrong way around.

If you stop mechs from having certain weapon combinations then you not only make the mechlab boring through lack of design options but you prevent any canon mechs with similar weapons ever being in the game. Even if you nerf the current mechs, with more IS mechs and the clans coming you will eventually end up with a canon build that everyone uses because it has the best big alpha and it still pinpoint insta-kills because the game mechanic is still broken and was never fixed.
The mechlab is the best thing about this game- how many people actually love the unchangeable trial mechs and don't want to design their own? Mechs with only a few possible weapon alternatives would be very nearly as boring and annoying as those trial mechs and nothing would make people leave the game faster- especially when they feel that they have to use the single 'best' chassis to compete.

TL;DR- Gimping the mechlab MW4 style would be a poisoned bandaid on a bullet wound.

[Gaan Cathal]

Roland, on 24 June 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

And yes, being able to aim in a shooter is in fact a skill. It's actually one of the most important skills involved in a shooter. If you are going to try and say that hand-eye coordination "doesn't matter" or isn't a valid skill, then perhaps video games aren't for you.

I think you're somewhat missing my point. I'm not saying aiming in shooters isn't a skill. I'm saying it's spectacularly easy in MWO. There's no bullet drop or recoil to compensate for, the targets are both large and slow moving. Thus there is a low skill floor. You don't have to be that good to get high damage/kills in a pinpoint alpha build. There are skill barriers inside the meta, sure, and a pilot who can consistently hit CT will loose to a pilot who can consistently headshot. I never said that wasn't the case.

However, I don't see how anyone could argue that lasers aren't higher skill floor than pinpoint. Aiming is trivial so the instant travel time is a minimal advantage compared on needing to hit the same compartment for, in the case of a medium laser, a full second to realise full damage. Holding aim on a location for a period of time is both harder in and of itself, and allows for actual defensive action. Lasers require more skill than pinpoint. And yet they give less reward than pinpoint. Even if you could guarantee a 100% accuracy rate with them, they'd still be inferior to pinpoint because the latter would have a dramatically shorter TTK and require less personal exposure.