74 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

I was going to start a thread about the AC40 Jager, which is ridiculous at the moment, but I thought I'd start this thread instead. It's not a new idea for a thread, but I haven't seen the question asked since the last patch, and since the last few patches have made some significant changes (PPC nerf and poptart nerf), I think it's worth asking the question again.

How far away are we from good game balance?

It gets tricky as soon as one tries to define game balance, but I think that in a game with about 80 different mech variants and 30 different weapons, we can define balance as a state where players can be approximately equally successful with different mechs (Atlas or Commando), different weapons (LRMs or pulse lasers) and different styles of playing (sniping or brawling).

In other words, do we just need to tweak the LRM damage and the SSRM homing mechanism, or is the whole game in dire need of a a complete overhaul of heat efficiency, convergence, weight class balance, etc?

EDIT: My poll disappeared

Edited by Alistair Winter, 09 June 2013 - 05:17 PM.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 09 June 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

In other words, do we just need to tweak the LRM damage and the SSRM homing mechanism, or is the whole game in dire need of a a complete overhaul of heat efficiency, convergence, weight class balance, etc?

The latter.

[Lootee]

It will never be balanced as long as you can easily make every weapon on your mech hit the same spot.

It encourages you to fill your hardpoints with as many of the exact same weapon as possible, whether it's PPCs, Gauss Rifles, AC/20s, medium lasers, or SRMs. Thus the weapon boating.

It'd be much harder to hit the same component with a PPC, SRM6, and a laser than 4 PPCs.

Not sure what the solution is, different sized hard points? A limit of how many weapons can be fired at once? Or the stacking heat nerf they're talking about.

The limit on simultaneous weapons fire could make sense. If they made it so you could only fire 1 big gun, or up to 3 smaller weapons at the same time. If you had 2 AC/20s in a group and fired, it could stagger the shots by .25 or .5 seconds.

A heavy gauss rifle has a chance of knocking the firing mech on its buttocks, why wouldn't 2 simultaneously fired AC/20s which do 15pts more damage than the heavy gauss not do the same? So use that as the reason to slightly delay the 2nd shot. The autoloading cannons on 20th century warships never fired all their barrels at once either, with systems like the twin or quad 40mm Bofors they always alternated barrels.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 09 June 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Tried twice to make a poll now. Did I lose my poll privileges?

[aniviron]

I feel like weapon balance is getting pretty close to being right, and weight class balance is really far off.

The only weapons I don't see much of (or see a lot of, being really bad) are slas, srm, ac/lb-10, mg/flamer, and pulse lasers. Of these, I think only the AC10 needs something done to it besides a small damage/rof/heat change.

That said, there is a reason that I play so many matches with 12 assaults, 2 heavies and 2 lights- mediums are far too fragile for how big and slow they are, lights have no real role outside capping (which is a broken mechanic, as implemented- it's just not fun.) and heavies are getting eclipsed by even heavier mechs. Assaults have no real downsides right now- the biggest engines they can run mean they have no real trouble hitting lights, are manouverable enough to avoid LRMs and assert map control without help, have the heaviest armor, and massive firepower. Anyone running anything else is not playing to win.

p.s. Alistair, I think this subforum might just not allow polls.

[Felbombling]

Alistair Winter, on 09 June 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

In other words, do we just need to tweak the LRM damage and the SSRM homing mechanism, or is the whole game in dire need of a a complete overhaul of heat efficiency, convergence, weight class balance, etc?

I find it strange that PGI are leaning towards a dreamt up stacking heat penalty for firing similar weapons during the same time span instead of attacking the problem at the root... the core mechanics listed above by Alistair. Their determination to stick with the initial core setup seems incredibly stubborn to me, if only due to the evidence one can plainly see by playing a few matches. I know many people love this one click, one kill style of game play, but I find it rather unsatisfying.

[FupDup]

StaggerCheck, on 09 June 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

--Their determination to stick with the initial core setup seems incredibly stubborn to me--

Their stubbornness can be used to explain pretty much any of the problems this game has ever faced.

[Dude42]

aniviron, on 09 June 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

p.s. Alistair, I think this subforum might just not allow polls.

Seems to be working for everyone else. Lol.

And we've still got a good way to go before the game is balaced. It's closer with the poptarting nerf, but still a lot to do.

[Fabe]

The game will never be considered "balanced" because no matter what, some one will complain that something is either overpowered or underpowered depending on whether their the ones using it. If they using it and their not winning then it's underpowered but if other are using it on them and winning then its over overpowered.

Edited by Fabe, 09 June 2013 - 06:24 PM.

[jeffsw6]

FupDup, on 09 June 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

Their stubbornness can be used to explain pretty much any of the problems this game has ever faced.

Not just stubbornness, but their unwillingness to test anything, use arithmetic, or have management who are capable of recognizing mistakes and trying to correct them. It all boils down to inept management.

[Sybreed]

perhaps we'll come to a point where weapons are "balanced" and all, but I'll always feel like this game will never reach greatness because of how shallow and meaningless each variants are thanks to the hardpoint system.

[FupDup]

Sybreed, on 09 June 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

perhaps we'll come to a point where weapons are "balanced" and all, but I'll always feel like this game will never reach greatness because of how shallow and meaningless each variants are thanks to the hardpoint system.

Are you referring to the overall idea of hardpoints (i.e. turn game into MW3, put anything anywhere as long as you've got the crits and weight), or is this about hardpoints having limited size (i.e. somewhat like MW4 but with critical spaces and stuff factored in)?

Edited by FupDup, 09 June 2013 - 06:31 PM.

[I am]

http://mwomercs.com/...01#entry2429601

Alistair Winter, on 09 June 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

In other words, do we just need to tweak the LRM damage and the SSRM homing mechanism, or is the whole game in dire need of a a complete overhaul of heat efficiency, convergence, weight class balance, etc?

How about doomed from inception?

[Sybreed]

FupDup, on 09 June 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Are you referring to the overall idea of hardpoints (i.e. turn game into MW3, put anything anywhere as long as you've got the crits and weight), or is this about hardpoints having limited size (i.e. somewhat like MW4 but with critical spaces and stuff factored in)?

call me crazy, but choosing a variant suited for the role I want would have been enough "customization" for me. I don't feel the need to strip all weapons and put completely different stuff because I'm allowed to. I would really enjoy a 3025 mode where it's stock mechs only (although, for that we need more ammo per tons).

But, in the current customize-everything meta, some limitations would not hurt the game IMO. I'm not saying a system à la MW4, although it had some interesting ideas, but Mechwarrior Tactics is using one particular system that could be tweaked a little for MWO (although I can't discuss it further because of the NDA). Something between what MWO has and what MWT has would be the best IMO

Edited by Sybreed, 09 June 2013 - 06:41 PM.

[FupDup]

Sybreed, on 09 June 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

call me crazy, but choosing a variant suited for the role I wanted would have been enough "customization" for me. I don't feel the need to strip all weapons and put completely different stuff because I'm allowed to. I would really enjoy a 3025 mode where it's stock mechs only (although, for that we need more ammo per tons).

But, in the current customize-everything meta, some limitations would not hurt the game IMO. I'm not saying a system à la MW4, although it had some interesting ideas, but Mechwarrior Tactics is using one particular system that could be tweaked a little for MWO (although I can't discuss it further because of the NDA). Something between what MWO has and what MWT has would be the best IMO

So it's about limited hardpoints (can't put Gauss in an MG port, etc.) instead of PGI's sizeless version. I can get behind that. It would probably also help the AWS because most other assaults wouldn't have big enough hardpoints to spam PPCs.

[Sybreed]

FupDup, on 09 June 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

So it's about limited hardpoints (can't put Gauss in an MG port, etc.) instead of PGI's sizeless version. I can get behind that. It would probably also help the AWS because most other assaults wouldn't have big enough hardpoints to spam PPCs.

exactly, it's a shame the Awesome gets shafted so much by PGI's system, it's such an iconic mech...

[Khell DarkWolf]

We a need an overhaul of the weapons and heat management system.

Either today or in the next few days. I'm going to explain why energy weapons are broken in a bad way and why a PPC is really not much different and better then a Medium laser.

[scJazz]

Mind Numbingly Soul Crushingly Unbalanced!

The only thing keeping this game afloat right now is nostalgia. Everything about it is sub-standard. I was going to write more but I was all like... meh... the various topics have been beaten to death, tossed in a blender and microwaved.

Yet somehow PGI thinks CW will magically make...

Total Lack of Heat Management
Zero Point Convergence Weapons in a Game Model originally designed for 2d6
High ROF Weapons in a Game Model or..... meh hell with it...

THINGS ARE TOTALLY FUBAR!

[StalaggtIKE]

In the world of MWO, the Awesome..., isn't.

[Keifomofutu]

StalaggtIKE, on 09 June 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

In the world of MWO, the Awesome..., isn't.

I read that in Sean Connery's voice. Yes that is depressing.

Specific to the thread brawling weapons like pulse lasers and SRMs need a buff. Mediums and lights depend on these short range weapons to be viable. Good short range weapons lets these lighter mechs compete with the powerful long range weapons on the slower tougher chassis.

Edited by Keifomofutu, 09 June 2013 - 07:04 PM.