68 replies to this topic

[Johnathan McKenna]

It should be very hard to hit your target while in the air... very very hard.

[CaveMan]

Cyber Carns, on 08 November 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

MW:LL seem to have done a fairly good job in regards to jump snipping. When you activate the jump jets the cockpit shakes quiet a bit making it hard to aim as the mech goes up in the air. That smooths out as the mech hits the apex of the jump.The shaking subsides when your are on the down ward arc making it a bit more normal to at that point. Seems to be a good compromise imo.

This system, plus MW2-style leg damage if you use up your jump jet plasma on the way up and don't have anything left to soften the landing.

[Lasercat]

mwhighlander, on 08 November 2011 - 10:11 PM, said:

IIRC, Jump sniping didn't even exist in TT

Yes, it's what the wraith was made for.

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The Wraiths pulse laser weaponry allows the 'Mech to negate most of the side effects on accuracy that is created by the Wraiths heavy use of jump jets, making it incredibly accurate and powerful for such a lightly armed 'Mech.^[2][1]

[VYCanis]

shooting while jumping is a legitimate tactic

its simply a matter of not making it a hyper efficient one with no real drawbacks.


So yeah, jumping just needs to be a violent affair that messes with your aim, i definitely like the idea of recoil actually being magnified while in the air. if you land a shot while jumping it should require a decent amount of skill and luck, and be more of a close range tactic than a long range one.

Not much can be done about preventing LRMs during a jump, but then again, you are usually better off hillhumping with LRMs anyway, jumping just makes you an easier target.



On the topic of jumpjet landings. I don't believe players should be taking damage for hard landings...to an extent. Obviously, walking off the top of a sky scraper should be a death sentence if you don't use your jj to slow your fall. But for the average jump from one place to another on the same elevation, i think mechs with JJ should automatically emit a short pulse of their jets just before landing, whether or not they used up all their normal jj juice during the flight, in order to slow their fall the minimal amount to not mangle their legs.

This would result in a hard but survivable landing that requires a moment to transition into normal movement.

However, had the player manually feathered their jets for a smoother landing, the landing is much nicer and is easier to transition from.


If you are jumping from a much higher elevation to a lower one and are falling a great height, the game should warn you of being at some dangerous velocity that it is not meant to handle and warn you to hit those jets.

if you don't have jets, well, you are SOL

[Corvus Antaka]

Love the Jumpjet Ideas Having some heavy shaking while trying to shoot in the air definitely increases believability and would greatly add to the challenge. I also wonder if Death from above should be the only way to get 1 shot headshot kills - with 2 shot headshot kills being the standard for every normal weapon - thus preventing a potentially dangerous 1 hit 1 kill situation with lasers, and giving DFA some extra oomph and incentive. the DFA would still have to hit the cockpit perfectly of course..not a shoulder or other body part.

[CaveMan]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 09 November 2011 - 01:17 AM, said:

with 2 shot headshot kills being the standard for every normal weapon

Why should my Hunchback's AC/20 suddenly be a popgun if it hits the head? I'm paying enough of a price just for the privilege of getting close enough to use it.

[Kudzu]

Seth, on 09 November 2011 - 12:27 AM, said:

I completely forgot about the -2 modifier for pulse lasers. I'm curious to see how they'll represent pulse lasers in this game.

If they're doing COF my guess is a smaller ring and higher heat/damage.

[RSF Angel]

VYCanis, on 09 November 2011 - 01:06 AM, said:

shooting while jumping is a legitimate tactic

its simply a matter of not making it a hyper efficient one with no real drawbacks.

QFT.

I'd like the following to be effective:
Jumping and firing an unguided rocket barrage
Jumping and firing a targetlocked guided missile
Jumping and spraying with High ROF weapons-machineguns and lasers.

Not so much jump sniping as jump spray and pray, or taking advantage of a previously acquired weapon lock.

[Corvus Antaka]

CaveMan, on 09 November 2011 - 01:31 AM, said:

Why should my Hunchback's AC/20 suddenly be a popgun if it hits the head? I'm paying enough of a price just for the privilege of getting close enough to use it.

more worried about small lasers in packs being link fired for the head..or er larges creating a headshot sniping problem. some heads like the madcat are huge, designed for a tabletop not a computer game.

mech4 dealt with it well by forcing 2 shots for headshot kills, making it viable but still tough. 1 shot headshots would rock, but given how mechwarrior as a game allows for link firing and cant be balanced like a sniper in an FPS can there is more to consider than letting the AC20 do it in one shot.

[CaveMan]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 09 November 2011 - 01:36 AM, said:

more worried about small lasers in packs being link fired for the head..

So don't make grouped weapons perfectly track to the same spot. Or don't have group-fire at all.

Quote

or er larges creating a headshot sniping problem

Even the Clan version doesn't get you insta-kills on a head that's fully armored. Or it shouldn't, at least. And in any case they can alter the Timberwolf cockpit a bit to not be such an obvious target.

Quote

given how mechwarrior as a game allows for link firing.

Who says it has to work the way it was done before? MW3 and 4 were fun (well, 3 was fun) but they let you get away with an absurd level of accuracy.

The people complaining about the Cone of Fire idea in other threads, going "this are sim!!1!" need to remember that even MW2 added randomness to shot placement. Just standing still there's a subtle spray effect that gets magnified at range. Real life weapons rarely have perfect accuracy, and even laser weapons are going to be bolted to a 'Mech structure that's always moving, shaking around and they should have a slight charging delay in the first place. Even gimbaled weapons wouldn't track instantly, it takes a fraction of a second for those servos to align with the gunsight, and like real-life stepper motors they should have a limited amount of precision. Getting all the shells of an autocannon/20 burst onto a 1-meter target at 270 meters with all the shaking, moving, recoil, ballistic drop, and windage is an achievement in itself, and it ought to be rewarded.

If nothing else, it will make people fight smarter and not stand out in the open. Adding reticule shake to jump firing is just icing on the cake, it makes poptart sniping useless for all but the most skilled gunner.

[Merf]

Firing while jumping should be a challenge I think. By challenge I do not mean an automated spread (like your standard FPS widening crosshair mechanic) but something the pilot can actually affect. Shaking, recoil twisting the mech etc. are all ideas I like.

/Merf - Believes good games allow the player to improve and adapt

[Hagan]

I think in the case of Jump Sniping there should be three clear points to be addressed.
Skill, Weapon Penalty and Return Fire.

Skill: This should be a personal and in game skill level. A mechs Jump Jets allow several tons of none aerodynamic metal to be thrown through the air (not fly) and land 'with a bump'. This should require the pilot to have to adjust and re-balance the mech mid flight to make sure it does not tip or 'drift' into objects like buildings. The in game skill can add better adjustment and stability but it should never take away that player element to keep it stable and on track.

This I feel would make Jump Sniping riskier and something for a player to practice and master over time, should they wish too.

Weapon Penalty: Recoil, when your mech in on the ground, is negated by its weight and gyroscope for the most part. When in the air however, there is nothing to 'brace' against. Jump sniping with an AC/10-20 or LRM system should be offset my massive mech drift and possible tilting off the mechs axis (because the gyro and leg actuators have nothing to brace against to absorb the shock). Jump jets are designed and installed to provide extra mobility to a mech, NOT to counter recoil.

With this in mind, Artillery, Missiles and Autocannons should, when fired from a flying mech, cause some sort of navigational woes and hazards for its pilot, especially when firing on the spot rather than when moving through the air. Lasers on the other hand come under a different mechanic, they already come with an in built penalty in the form of heat. Jump Jets build up heat, Lasers build up heat, go over that threshold whilst in mid air, mech shuts down, mech meets the earth with zero grace and mucho damage.

And Finally!
Return Fire: Being a fan of Schlock Mercenary, I feel there are a few maxims that come into play here.
"What do you call flying combatants on the Battlefield? - Skeet."
and
"Everything is air-droppable at least once!"

You want to risk flying on a battlefield where line of sight is reduced to a few hundred meters, opening yourself up to ground fire from a kilometer away. Fantastic, let me know before hand, I'll bring along a Rifleman. Return fire should be more lethal for a variety of reasons, especially if there is a mechanic to damage individual components of a battlemech. Still not getting it? Jump a few hundred feet into the air, someone shoots out your legs and wrecks your jump jets. No more lift.
*splat*
Or maybe you manage to use your remaining jets to slow your decent. Excellent, even easier airborne target that isn't moving as quick. It will be like playing that classic Nintendo game 'Duck Hunt', only with a Battelmech. Dead either way.

Then we come to the other end of the physics engine. We've had recoil, lets talk impact damage.
Just as with recoil in mid air, there is nothing to brace you mech against when being hit by heavy amounts of ground fire. Drift and tipping off your axis is just as much an issue when receiving Autocannon and Missile damage (And maybe Artillery Damage if the guy shotting at your sorry backside is a **** fine shot), so its worth bearing this in mind that this could really ruin your day if you make a habit of jump sniping (as well as just jump jetting).

As for Lasers, well they do not produce recoil and do not have any kinetic energy behind them. Apart from the resulting melting armour and thermal damage, I can't think of a single hazard from energy weapons. Well, PPC's maybe having a chance of disrupting your jump jets if they get a leg/torso hit on one. Or maybe increasing the heat your jump jets generate if they get a hit with a laser (thermal energy remember, so overheating a mechs Jets could be a possibility).

All I'm saying is that for every legitimate tactic, there should be a few legitimate consequences.

Feeback and comments on this post are more than welcome.

Edited by Hagan, 09 November 2011 - 03:41 AM.

[CaveMan]

Hagan, on 09 November 2011 - 03:40 AM, said:

because the gyro and leg actuators have nothing to brace against to absorb the shock

Gyro doesn't have to brace against anything. It stabilizes the 'Mech by inertia alone. That's why satellites are spin-stabilized.

Otherwise, good points.

As an aside, jump jet thrust could taper off after you leave the ground. A large impulse to get you off the ground and gradually falling thrust levels as the jets run out of juice. The large initial blast-off effect will make it basically impossible for someone to pop up just over a low ridge and shoot, as you'll be rapidly forced high into the air in the first second or so of hitting the jets and there will be tons of shaking.

[Dozer]

One of the things about jump jet sniping though is that launch speed should be potentially considered. We've all seen it in rocket tests, more mass requires more time to reach a launch ready state. An Atlas should never take as long as a Firefly to launch, it should be much longer. Certain laws of physics simply shouldn't be bent just for the sake of 'game'iness' imo. One of the reasons why AM's shouldn't really be used for jump sniping

Edited by Dozer, 09 November 2011 - 04:20 AM.

[phelanjkell]

Decrease accuracy while jumping at the minimum. I'm all for not having every match turn into a jump sniping fest.

[wpmaura]

agree that flight should not be a super smooth experience. missles would then be used alot but as long as penalties are applied its ok

[Barbaric Soul]

Cyber Carns, on 08 November 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

MW:LL seem to have done a fairly good job in regards to jump snipping. When you activate the jump jets the cockpit shakes quiet a bit making it hard to aim as the mech goes up in the air. That smooths out as the mech hits the apex of the jump.The shaking subsides when your are on the down ward arc making it a bit more normal to at that point. Seems to be a good compromise imo.

I can jump snipe in MWLL almost as effectively as I can in MW4, just like I can jump snipe playing FFP almost as effectively as I can in 3pv. Reguardless of what you do, people will jumpsnipe in this game. That is unless you completely get rid of JJ, which would be a huge mistake.

Edited by Barbaric Soul, 09 November 2011 - 04:55 AM.

[Wolvers]

Well, it should be harder to hit, you get a +3 penalty to hit whilst firing and jumping on the TT.

[wpmaura]

what about any hit what so ever to a jump meching has the chance to cause jump distruption so it can fall temporarly.

[Riptor]

Give the jumpjets limited amount of fuel and thats that.

Never understood how those things could have unlimited use during a battle anyways...