167 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Ok, I see a tweet from Russ about some new mechs we're going to like.. and honest to god, my first thought wasn't "oh cool, sounds interesting" or anything to that effect it went more like "yeah.. but PPCs- new chassis same **** weapon mounting"

PGI:
I've seen new contests.. (I'm patching one now)
I've seen posts about new mechs (which will mount PPCs)
I've seen a discussion to curb boating (which doesn't touch any build but the PPC stalker)

I've not seen a single thing addressing this comparative super weapon.

I've been completely ignored asking if PGI is going to do something about the PPC


Jumpsniping (as annoying as it was, glad it's gone) was just a symptom of the PPC boating problem.
4+ Boating is a rarer symptom of this problem.

The real problem is, unlike every other front-loaded, high damage weapon in the game.. this weapon is EASY TO BOAT.
And to be blunt, this weapon is EASY TO BOAT because you caved to the short-sighted whiners and reduced it's ONLY WEAKNESS.

Every other ballistic styled weapon has a real weakness:
Heavy
Large
Explosive (Weapon/Ammo)
Limited Duration (Ammo)
And some of them even have heat to add.

PPC only had HEAT.. which you NERFED- and add Double Heat Sinks to the picture and it only becomes that much better.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On current track, your game is going to die- and here's why:
Your boating curb doesn't touch combinations like 3 PPC-1Gauss Highlanders.. at ALL..3 PPCs still generate lackluster heat when paired with Double Heat Sinks.
New mechs- same premier weapon to mount.
People will get tired of trying to make use of their favorite weapons in the face of the clearly superior PPC...including me.
Clans will make it somewhat interesting (assuming against all odds that they'll somehow be balanced) before the game degenerates back to the PPC meta.
Community Warfare, when it really comes down to the wire- the competitive teams are going to use 3PPC/Gauss Assault mechs because there's no penalty for doing so, and it is effective at long range, short range, brawling, and everything but high speed maneuvers.

I know you're not stupid, but why are you so stubborn that you won't even MENTION looking at the PPC problem you've facilitated.

PGI knows there's a problem.. and for any players thinking I'm just spouting off from anecdotes.. feel free to check this out:

https://static.mwome...m/img/heatmaps/

First: set it to kills, or to deaths (I prefer deaths because each player only dies once per map)
Second: Look at any map. (but the most telling is Frozen City or Alpine)
Third: Look at week 10, then look at week 17, then look at week 24...is the game growing, stagnating, or dwindling?

/rant

Not real happy with the thought of such a game going down the tube because the developers won't consider simply reversing a single change, ever.

[3rdworld]

They are too busy working on machine guns.

[Victor Morson]

Buff the other weapons and the PPC is fine.

[Livewyr]

Victor Morson, on 21 June 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

Buff the other weapons and the PPC is fine.

Two things wrong with that:

1: Why don't we just get rid of armor... (Things are already dying way too fast to PPCs... and you want to make the other weapons as strong?)

2: What would you recommend they do with the AC10?
Lower the weight
Shrink the size
increase the APT?

The PPC simply outclasses (and always has) every other heavy weapon in EVERY way, except Excessive Heat generation.. which is no longer the case.. so just how would you buff the other weapons to being in line with the PPC? (Without turning them into the PPC)

[Mechteric]

I would really like to see what would happen if the ER and regular PPC heat was put back to, or somewhat close to, their original values before they were introduced as an ECM counter. The rise in heat would let 1-2 PPC users be mostly ok while still heat cautious and would really help limit those who boat 4 or more. It seems the easiest path before they get around to introducing stiffer penalties/drawbacks for maintaining high heat.

[EyeOne]

I think they should just put the PPC and ERPPC heat levels back to what they were before. I didn't think they needed ad heat buff anyway, especially not a huge one like they got.

[Livewyr]

CapperDeluxe, on 21 June 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I would really like to see what would happen if the ER and regular PPC heat was put back to, or somewhat close to, their original values before they were introduced as an ECM counter. The rise in heat would let 1-2 PPC users be mostly ok while still heat cautious and would really help limit those who boat 4 or more. It seems the easiest path before they get around to introducing stiffer penalties/drawbacks for maintaining high heat.

EyeOne, on 21 June 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I think they should just put the PPC and ERPPC heat levels back to what they were before. I didn't think they needed ad heat buff anyway, especially not a huge one like they got.

Wouldn't be any more complicated than reducing the heat in the first place, one would think.

[Jasen]

Back in the original heat value days I ran 2 ERPPCs on a k2 with tons of SINGLE heat sinks (before doubles) and it was actually a very viable weapon.. competitive with the gauss kitty due to no ammo limits. (and the excellent PPC sniping frame of the k2)

Was kinda baffled when it got a HUGE buff as opposed to a tiny one (which it probably needed).

Edited by Jasen, 21 June 2013 - 06:17 AM.

[IceSerpent]

Livewyr, on 21 June 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

Two things wrong with that:

1: Why don't we just get rid of armor... (Things are already dying way too fast to PPCs... and you want to make the other weapons as strong?)

2: What would you recommend they do with the AC10?
Lower the weight
Shrink the size
increase the APT?

The PPC simply outclasses (and always has) every other heavy weapon in EVERY way, except Excessive Heat generation.. which is no longer the case.. so just how would you buff the other weapons to being in line with the PPC? (Without turning them into the PPC)

Sorry to be blunt, but you are wrong - there's nothing broken about PPC specifically, problem is that we curently don't have any viable brawler configs which are a natural counter to snipers.

A simple way to test is to pretend for a moment that PPC/ERPPC got completely removed from the game - would it make the game balanced? No, it would merely change FOTM builds to large laser + AC20/gauss combos.

[Jasen]

IceSerpent, on 21 June 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

Sorry to be blunt, but you are wrong - there's nothing broken about PPC specifically, problem is that we curently don't have any viable brawler configs which are a natural counter to snipers.

A simple way to test is to pretend for a moment that PPC/ERPPC got completely removed from the game - would it make the game balanced? No, it would merely change FOTM builds to large laser + AC20/gauss combos.

Good point kinda, but the PPCs are remarkably efficient. Brawl weapons being buffed would offset it, but wouldn't change the fact that (er)PPCs are still good brawl weapons when they shouldn't be.

[Ngamok]

Victor Morson, on 21 June 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

Buff the other weapons and the PPC is fine.

You can't. You still have no ammo, low tonnage weapon that can be boated with manageable heat.

EyeOne, on 21 June 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I think they should just put the PPC and ERPPC heat levels back to what they were before. I didn't think they needed ad heat buff anyway, especially not a huge one like they got.

The speed did need a buff from closed beta sure, the heat needed a buff to test things out. The way things have turned out, it needs to go back to the original value or close to it. I agree.

[El Bandito]

3rdworld, on 21 June 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

They are too busy working on Large Pulse Laser.

Fixed for ya.

[Strum Wealh]

EyeOne, on 21 June 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I think they should just put the PPC and ERPPC heat levels back to what they were before. I didn't think they needed ad heat buff anyway, especially not a huge one like they got.

Indeed - pushing the per-salvo heat of both the standard PPC and ER-PPC back to their TT levels (10 heat/shot for the PPC and 15 heat/shot for the ER-PPC) should be part of any solution implemented.

[Jasen]

3rdworld, on 21 June 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

They are too busy working on 3PV

fixed.

[Livewyr]

IceSerpent, on 21 June 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

Sorry to be blunt, but you are wrong - there's nothing broken about PPC specifically, problem is that we curently don't have any viable brawler configs which are a natural counter to snipers.

A simple way to test is to pretend for a moment that PPC/ERPPC got completely removed from the game - would it make the game balanced? No, it would merely change FOTM builds to large laser + AC20/gauss combos.

At least AC20s and Gauss are tougher to mount, have limited ammo (A huge thing), and explode one way or the other...

(AC20 needs an over-range reduction IMO, but that is another matter.. it's still nothing in the face of PPCs.)

[Blackadder]

as soon as you do anything negative to PPC's players will just move on to the SRM that went from 1.5 to 3.5 damage at the same time PPC's were nerfed into the ground. Players will always find the most effective weapon system , and changing them one at a time has already been shown to create massive issues for the game.

so your rant about PPCs is frankly shortsighted, and does nothing to accomplish any kind of game balance in the short or long term, and will only result in the fotm mech shifting from ppc boats, to another weapon equally as problematic. I have no background in computer software, i do have a background in engineering, and the repeated pattern frankly just tells me the real issue has nothing to do with individual weapon systems, and is a far larger problem that has been around for quite some time.

[DemonRaziel]

Livewyr is correct. We are already in a situation, where a particular group of weapons can end encounters in mere seconds. Allowing more weapons to 1-2-shot entire classes of 'Mechs would only encourage the arms race even more.

While there is no doubt, that SRMs are long past due on buff and the LPL even received a semi-nerf recently, fixing the main brawling weapons will not make PPCs (and to an extent other weapons with front loaded damage) any less effective.

And there is probably no point in tinkering with the damage of PPCs as PGI will, in my opinion, not deviate from the 10 damage they currently do (although turning PPCs into a damage over time weapon would most likely make sense). Increasing their heat generation (as in, putting it back where it was before) would limit its boating capabilities (and would be a much easier solution than the planned boating penalty which is stupid on so many different levels, but I digress) make them less effective for prolonged combat scenarios (brawling).

With their current heat levels, one might even argue, that we do have indeed a viable brawling weapon - (ER)PPCs.

Edited by DemonRaziel, 21 June 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[Livewyr]

Blackadder, on 21 June 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

as soon as you do anything negative to PPC's players will just move on to the SRM that went from 1.5 to 3.5 damage at the same time PPC's were nerfed into the ground. Players will always find the most effective weapon system , and changing them one at a time has already been shown to create massive issues for the game.

so your rant about PPCs is frankly shortsighted, and does nothing to accomplish any kind of game balance in the short or long term, and will only result in the fotm mech shifting from ppc boats, to another weapon equally as problematic. I have no background in computer software, i do have a background in engineering, and the repeated pattern frankly just tells me the real issue has nothing to do with individual weapon systems, and is a far larger problem that has been around for quite some time.

Wanna know something interesting?

When they released Alpine.. during the Splatcat Meta, but before the PPC buff.. there was a drastic drop in Splatcats.. why?
Because Splatcats have this really nasty limitation.. at around 270 meters..

One cannot boat SRMs and be all around effective like they are with PPCs.
Splatcat meta was only there because all the maps at the time were conducive to it.

[Jasen]

DemonRaziel, on 21 June 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

With their current heat levels, one might even argue, that we do have indeed a viable brawling weapon - (ER)PPCs.

No need to argue. It's the best brawling weapon in the game... because it is a damn good brawling weapon, and also happens to be the best sniper weapon in the game too. You're almost stupid for not bringing them.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

learn to play, goddamit, l2p!