100 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Mudhutwarrior, on 24 June 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Been playing for months and I use arm lock for a differnt reason. I am near blind and cannot see the cricle most often. Dont really care if jerks call me a noob because of it. It will make the game unplayable for me. On good days I can use shift when i need to. Try sometimes to take in consideration we are not all the same here and understand its one of the good things for some of us.

Many games have alternate crosshair graphics and colors. I think lobbying for torso lock is the wrong way to help you play and that you should make a post asking for customizable crosshairs.

I believe you may be able to do this with user mods, actually. Have you looked into it?

[Soy]

Ghogiel, on 24 June 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

It's not a toggle.

[Victor Morson]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 June 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

If that's true, then It's really just another thing PGI messed up implementing in this game and didn't bother to do any real testing.

I strongly encourage anyone in this thread to give this a shot themselves. If you are unaware of the "Press shift for instant convergence" situation, try that - if you are aware of it and it has become second nature to you, try a few drops without it.

I think both experiences should cause you to arrive at the same conclusion. Just drive a typical meta PPC/Gauss Cataphract or Highlander to see the clearest results.

Edited by Victor Morson, 24 June 2013 - 04:04 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Victor Morson, on 24 June 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

I strongly encourage anyone in this thread to give this a shot themselves. If you are unaware of the "Press shift for instant convergence" situation, try that - if you are aware of it and it has become second nature to you, try a few drops without it.

I think both experiences should cause you to arrive at the same conclusion. Just drive a typical meta PPC/Gauss Cataphract or Highlander to see the clearest results.

I believe you, I play like 2 days a week so I won't normally catch onto these nuances right away.

It's just another thing on a rather long list.

[Phaesphoros]

Shameless plug.

The non-locked system is confusing and not what an engineer would build.

vids from the thread mentioned above:

First video: low "torso twisting" speed


Second video: high (but not max) "torso twisting" speed


Arm reticle is ALWAYS off when torso-twisting, no matter how fast.

Arm lock makes life much easier for MechWarriors whose 'Mechs have arm- and torso-mounted lasers -- not only for poptarters.

Edit: Oh, and seems like my prediction came true..

Edited by Phaesphoros, 24 June 2013 - 04:10 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Phaesphoros, on 24 June 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Shameless plug.

The non-locked system is confusing and not what an engineer would build.

vids from the thread mentioned above:

First video: low "torso twisting" speed


Second video: high (but not max) "torso twisting" speed


Arm reticle is ALWAYS off when torso-twisting, no matter how fast.

It makes life much easier for MechWarriors whose 'Mechs have arm- and torso-mounted lasers -- not only for poptarters.

Edit: Oh, and seems like my prediction came true..

Yep, you were spot on. To be fair we were early adapters of it in the Blazing Aces, but at the same time, I honestly didn't think it was such a big deal except "Oh hey, it makes the 3D more usable!" It mutated out of control from there but honestly I think I was "too close" and didn't even realize how bad it had become and I started putting a lot of thought into what actually changed outside of PPC meta between early MW:O and current MW:O.

Arm Lock is the reason that the skill required for long range combat was closely tied to Arm Lock not existing, and also why the K2 used to be the King of Snipers - remember when people complained about that? I bet they'd love for the K2 to be top dog again now.

That "torso trail" made torso guns harder to hit with than arm mounted ones, and syncing the two was an issue. This is a huge reason I believe MW:O used to feel like it took more skill than it does now, not just the weapon balance. I don't know why this hasn't occurred to me before, but if you do 5 drops using both styles, it's so pronounced and night and day I am absolutely convinced it's the root cause to our biggest issues.

I can't believe newbie training wheels (at least, their intent) have caused so much damage in retrospect.

Edited by Victor Morson, 24 June 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[Phaesphoros]

I think the reason why it "makes things easier" is because non-arm lock is a silly system, not because arm lock is OP (or whatever). 'Mechs w/o lower arm actuator don't really suffer from the offset between the two reticles, and I think it wouldn't help with the high-alpha sniper meta

consider:

• HGN with 3 PPC RT
  
• AC/40 JM6
  
• Firebrand with arm-mounted weapons (e.g. 1 Gauss 2 ERPPC)
  
• CTF-3D with only arm-mounted weapons
  
• STK
  
• CTPLT-K2
  
• dual-gauss CTF (4X or IM)

Edited by Phaesphoros, 24 June 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[Steel Will]

Considering Stalkers and Jagers get virtually all the benefits of armlock with out the toggle or the drawbacks, it couldn't have.

And it's a pretty crap mechanic that the torso always diverges from the arms (if they have lower actuators) even if the arms are moving slower than max torso speed in the first place.

Edited by Steel Will, 24 June 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Phaesphoros, on 24 June 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

I think the reason why it "makes things easier" is because non-arm lock is a silly system, not because arm lock is OP (or whatever). 'Mechs w/o lower arm actuator don't really suffer from the offset between the two reticles, and I think it wouldn't help with the high-alpha sniper meta (consider HGN with 3 PPC RT or Firebrand or 3D with only arm-mounted weapons).

There's a slight unaligned X axis even on 'mechs without lower arm actuators, actually. Furthermore the Highlander 1 Gauss / 3 PPC would be a great example of unaligned fire, since it would not longer be able to easily sync the Gauss and PPCs into the same shot, with the PPCs trailing the Gauss unless the sniper drastically leads the target to line up a perfect shot - which is more than fair.

It's how MW:O used to be and I realize now was much better for. The minute easy "all guns aligned" mode was put in all this "every gun on one location" stuff started.

[Ghogiel]

Soy, on 24 June 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

How come it doesn't toggle for me, I have to hold the key down, is it because I left it default as left shift?

[Profiteer]

Roland, on 24 June 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

I don't believe this is actually the case.

When you hit the arm lock button, it snaps your arm reticle to your torso reticle, not the other way around. Normally, the camera tracks your arm reticle, and when you hit the arm lock button it jump back, because it's snapping back to where your torso is.

I just tested this, and I'm pretty sure this is how it works. So I don't believe it can actually give you an advantage in torso twist speed.

Correct.

And getting rid of arm-lock will just make the Stalker even more dominant on the battlefield.

[Steel Will]

Ghogiel, on 24 June 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

How come it doesn't toggle for me, I have to hold the key down, is it because I left it default as left shift?

Despite how it's listed it's not a toggle.

[Victor Morson]

Phaesphoros, on 24 June 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

I think the reason why it "makes things easier" is because non-arm lock is a silly system, not because arm lock is OP (or whatever). 'Mechs w/o lower arm actuator don't really suffer from the offset between the two reticles, and I think it wouldn't help with the high-alpha sniper meta

consider:

• HGN with 3 PPC RT (ED: The Gauss won't sync with it anymore, so win)
  
• AC/40 JM6 (ED: Not OP anyway, arm mounted guns should have an range of motion edge)
  
• Firebrand with arm-mounted weapons (ED: More fragile, so I'm OK with it)
  
• CTF-3D with only arm-mounted weapons (ED: Weaker than the normal build and again, more fragile)
  
• STK (ED: The torso still trails behind the aiming reticule, increasing aiming difficulty)
  
• CTPLT-K2 (ED: Same as above, but who doesn't miss the K2 as the "best sniper out there"???)
  
• dual-gauss CTF (4X or IM) (ED: Honestly I'd be refreshed to see people go back to this over 1G/3PPC)

ED: is me.

Again, this is not a magic bullet cure all. Quick deaths will happen until weight limits are added. PPCs will remain popular until short range weapons are buffed, etc, etc. I am not saying this fixes everything.

I am saying this VASTLY reduces the #1 complaint around here about every gun hitting the same spot every time, and being easy to aim. I think most of the people fighting to keep arm lock simply want to keep what is effectively an easy mode button. (Except the near blind poster. But he really needs a custom reticule, not arm lock.)

Edited by Victor Morson, 24 June 2013 - 04:31 PM.

[Soy]

Ghogiel, on 24 June 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

How come it doesn't toggle for me, I have to hold the key down, is it because I left it default as left shift?

Yes I hold it down for shots. That's a toggle to me, it is labeled as toggle, so... I dunno, I like it, I use it sometimes. For some people, using the check mark on the bottom left for permanent arm lock is probably best. For others, maybe never using arm lock is best.

[I3lackI2ogue]

ill be bumping this thread, in hopes PGI actually reads it, this is a great find, hopefully its removed entirely, we need more skill^tm based gameplay, this is a sim after all.

[Kiiyor]

The thing is, removing arm lock won't really affect actuator challenged boat mechs like the Stalker and Yagerbomb, as they don't have lateral movement to worry about anyway.

Even with arms unlocked on these mechs (with the vertical arm jitter that goes with it) arm and torso shots still tend to hit the same location anyway, as mech hit boxes tend to be tall enough to allow non-pinpoint strikes to hit the same location. The Highlander is a pinpoint monster with armlock, but IMHO is far less dangerous than the stalker.

While I agree that arm lock is a large contributor to pinpoint damage issues, I believe removing it will mostly nerf mechs like the 4p and Quickdraw (and probably others), making the Stalker even more dominant.

[I3lackI2ogue]

Soy, on 24 June 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Yes I hold it down for shots. That's a toggle to me, it is labeled as toggle, so... I dunno, I like it, I use it sometimes. For some people, using the check mark on the bottom left for permanent arm lock is probably best. For others, maybe never using arm lock is best.

it "toggles" as long as you hold the button down

[PEEFsmash]

I do support removing arm lock. It would increase the skill-gap in this game, and is one of the few ways to reduce "pinpoint alphas" while still allowing people to alpha, and allowing them to hit exactly what they are aiming at.

Obviously, it doesn't fix everything, but arm lock was absolutely a dumbing-down of the aiming skill, especially on heavies/assaults that are so strong right now.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 24 June 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[Roland]

Victor Morson, on 24 June 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

Having done this a lot, I can definitely say it is Torso -> Arm for the snap. If it's far enough away, sometimes they meet in the middle slightly, favoring the arm. Either way, though, effectively it would still let you do the same thing: Roughly converge over a target in the distance, hit shift, and then instantly fully converge on them instead.

Without arm lock, you could still snipe but the odds of both your arm and torso weapons hitting the same spot would be drastically lower, unless you have enough time to let them "settle" which requires way more skill leading your shots.

No, I just did more testing.
When you hit the toggle, it snaps everything to where your torso is.

You aren't getting any advantage at all from hitting it, other than having it lock everything up in one reticle (which is certainly useful in many cases).

But you aren't getting the advantage that you seem to be thinking. It doesn't let you move your torso reticle any faster.

[Unbound Inferno]

I think its more accurate to describe the removal of the torso snap than the arm lock itself.

It is easier for newer pilots to have all its weapons point where intended - but its that snap that's the issue.

I'm all for the removal of the snap feature, I typically don't use it anyway and agree with your assessment - but the ability to lock the arms or to have them free should remain. Just not that snap feature.