140 replies to this topic

[Asmudius Heng]

This is the sort of communication issues that PGI always trip up over.

The outrght dismissal of concerns.

The twitter poster didnt really highlight his concerns mind you it was very general so I can understand somewhat the thought process of Russ ... but the fact of the matter is that reply was insulting and unprofessional. It also means that anyone who voices a similar concern to that poster was just insulted by Russ as well which is anyone playing less because they have issues with game balance.

While the game IS is better shape now that previously - this does not mean it is in good shape.

I have been saying for months and months and months PGIs great failing is community interaction and communication. They sometimes get a little better, then they do something momumentally stupid like this. one step forwards two back and so forth.

If you want your fan base to respect you PGI you need to show a level of respect and empathy back to your players and customers.

I work in product development and if i told a customer who was unhappy with what it does that answer I would lose significant business and I would be ashamed of myself for not listening to feedback and giving it due thought even if it might be wrong.

Like it or not Russ - your twitter is now being scrutnised very closely as an official outlet of information and community interaction. Your behaviour on twitter is indicative of your attitude towards the community.

[RG Notch]

Victor Morson, on 25 June 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

If you think a mod running an a several year old game that got pulled from Steam because of EA dickery with absolutely no marketing and just word of mouth would ever have a chance at forming a huge community, you are insane.

People still do play it, but with no mechlab ever added and most people migrating to the game with more players because there were more players does not mean it was an even remotely bad mod. In many ways it did things vastly superior to MW:O, in particular when it comes to 'mech weapon balance.

MW4: Hardcore was also a "fan project" and I think most people regard that as the pinnacle of competitive MechWarrior in retrospect. Trying to knock it and claim it has no merit because it was a "fan project" is flat out stupid. Are you really claiming MW:O has to have superior balance because the guy happens to be paid to balance it?

All I am saying is MW:LL had it's own set of problems to be sure but it had plenty of merits and is a good place to look at weapon balance, which is spot on. To be honest in it's later releases it had more polish than many released games!

(MW:O flat out copied the LRM minimum range effects, the way beam lasers are duration fire, etc. from MW:LL and I will positively never believe otherwise as well. I'm sure the MW:LL team are happy to have contributed those ideas to the franchise.)

There's a difference between not having a huge community and having no one play it. I guess you play a lot of poorly made released games. I never claimed MWO has better anything, well other than obviously population. What I said and you've agreed, is that no one played it. Spin it how you want, blame other people, make all the excuses you want. NO ONE PLAYED IT.

[keith]

i wonder what drugs russ has and can he pass some down to me. i would like to be in that state when i deal with customers when i work.

[Iron Hyena]

He's right to tell that guy off.

[General Taskeen]

RG Notch, on 25 June 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

NO ONE PLAYED IT.

And I'm probably one of few people that still plays/tests MW3? And so what? It still has some interesting features that could be ported into MWO. In fact, my first Mech game was Mech Warrior 4, so only now am I going back and testing these other Mech titles. Your getting your nickers in a bunch over nothing.

Edited by General Taskeen, 25 June 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[RG Notch]

General Taskeen, on 25 June 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

I'm not even sure what your point is anymore. I never played MW:LL until after MWO was released, to see what it was about and to test it out at face value, irregardless that it is a mod with few players. I play/test both and still do concurrently. I wanted to see the merit of its balance and how those idea's could be worked into MWO, since the devs already took bits and pieces from the game already. I still even play/test MW3, to find the good balance aspects of that game that might work in MWO.

I think it's pretty clear what my point is : NO ONE PLAYED IT! Does being popular mean that a game is great and balanced? No. But when NO ONE PLAYS that's hardly an endorsement. Not being a chart topper is not the same as NO ONE PLAYING. People tend to not play bad games. Since NO ONE PLAYED, it's seems safe to say it wasn't as dreamy as the zealots make it out to be. Without a mech lab, balance pretty much means little. But 70 or so people can't be wrong.

[JSparrowist]

I keep getting the feeling that the folks at DICE called up PGI and invited them out on their yacht where they taught them all the trade tricks to keeping a game alive without actually working on the important issues. Granted BF3 got a little better but it is still a cash grab until the next big thing...

Could someone photoshop/edit the PGI staff into this video and repost it? lmao..

[Victor Morson]

RG Notch, on 25 June 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

I think it's pretty clear what my point is : NO ONE PLAYED IT! Does being popular mean that a game is great and balanced? No. But when NO ONE PLAYS that's hardly an endorsement. Not being a chart topper is not the same as NO ONE PLAYING. People tend to not play bad games. Since NO ONE PLAYED, it's seems safe to say it wasn't as dreamy as the zealots make it out to be. Without a mech lab, balance pretty much means little. But 70 or so people can't be wrong.

Remember people, when Transformers 4 blows the utter crap out of a really smart, awesome sci-fi movie in the same weekend, we should all ignore that second movie because noone saw it.

Oh crap. It just occurred to me.. which movie studio do you run RG Notch???

[Victor Morson]

JSparrowist, on 25 June 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I keep getting the feeling that the folks at DICE called up PGI and invited them out on their yacht where they taught them all the trade tricks to keeping a game alive without actually working on the important issues. Granted BF3 got a little better but it is still a cash grab until the next big thing...

With Battlefield 3, I really really enjoyed it for the first week or two. The reason I totally stopped playing the game was when it became entirely apparent that there was absolutely no reason to not be an engineer. Always. (OK, maybe a scout). They had acceptable anti-infantry and easy anti-tank and regenerating health made medics not all that important, in particular since you can just squad spawn.

It has to be what a non-Battletech fan feels in MW after a while. Once they catch on that there's "one build" to more or less make unless they want to be the scout, it's got to get grating pretty quick. I know the franchise and the excellent focus on team play that comes with it is what's kept me here. But if I was running solo and knew nothing about it, I'd be gone once I caught onto that. Just like I was from BF3 once I got sick of the entire game being monoclass or bust.*

*I haven't kept up on BF3 in months, nor have I looked into their plans for BF4 closely, so I am speaking from the experience of someone that quit shortly after the Wake Island nostalgia patch. I'm probably an unintentional good example of how hard it is to win a customer back. I'd much rather play Planetside 2 than go back to the franchise, even if they've improved, due to experience.

Edited by Victor Morson, 25 June 2013 - 04:08 PM.

[General Taskeen]

RG Notch, on 25 June 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

Without a mech lab, balance pretty much means little. But 70 or so people can't be wrong.

Huh?

Ah, I see. I believe that drug is called Mechlab-amphetamine. Now I know the issue, very potent drug. And what if MWO introduced a stock-mode or other types of restriction, would its balance be set apart from Mech Lab mode or could both be balanced more than a little?

I'm seeing examples of Ad ignorantiam and Non-Sequitur in your main argument.

Victor Morson, on 25 June 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

With Battlefield 3, I really really enjoyed it for the first week or two. The reason I totally stopped playing the game was when it became entirely apparent that there was absolutely no reason to not be an engineer. Always. (OK, maybe a scout). They had acceptable anti-infantry and easy anti-tank and regenerating health made medics not all that important, in particular since you can just squad spawn.

It has to be what a non-Battletech fan feels in MW after a while. Once they catch on that there's "one build" to more or less make unless they want to be the scout, it's got to get grating pretty quick. I know the franchise and the excellent focus on team play that comes with it is what's kept me here. But if I was running solo and knew nothing about it, I'd be gone once I caught onto that. Just like I was from BF3 once I got sick of the entire game being monoclass or bust.*

*I haven't kept up on BF3 in months, nor have I looked into their plans for BF4 closely, so I am speaking from the experience of someone that quit shortly after the Wake Island nostalgia patch. I'm probably an unintentional good example of how hard it is to win a customer back. I'd much rather play Planetside 2 than go back to the franchise, even if they've improved, due to experience.

I haven't played that in a long time. All I played was Scout. I liked how they made scopes like flashlights (sarcasm) so I made many people mad by getting headshots by putting a non-flashlight scope on. Most people caught on quick that an SKS with a non-flashy scope was pretty much win. Or I'd just run around picking a non-sniper weapon for the scout.

Edited by General Taskeen, 25 June 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[Waking One]

The game is working better than ever, and it is indeed in the best state to date. Except for the whole PPC thing which needs to stop. You don't sign up to a slow stompy robot game to one shot people, as much as some of the more vocal idiots in this community try to sell just that.

[Pyrrho]

Here's a follow up question to the "this is best state..." comment: On a scale of 1 to 10, where is the game in terms of where you want to see it?

Deep down in my gut I have already placed it around a 3. This is just my gut reaction to having to scale it that way.

[LethalMezzle]

If Russ is referring to technical aspects i.e. stability, FPS, hit detection, then I would agree with him. I don't actually crash any more and hit detection is not perfect but much better.

But balance wise, I'm not so sure. It's still a mess.

[PEEFsmash]

PGI is seriously out of touch. I wish they would take in some more regular feedback from a part of the community other than grognard-ville aka NGNG. NGNG is not representative of that much of the community. Being buddies with them doesn't mean sh*t.

I assume that I don't even have to say this another time, but I will. Get advice from and interact with the competitive community. If you want to get started, my inbox is always open.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 25 June 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[Roland]

Quote

Ah, I see. I believe that drug is called Mechlab-amphetamine. Now I know the issue, very potent drug. And what if MWO introduced a stock-mode or other types of restriction, would its balance be set apart from Mech Lab mode or could both be balanced more than a little?

Notch is totally correct about this.

Without the ability to customize mechs, LL simply sidestepped the source of most balance issues. It's impossible to say that weapons balance was great, because you simply couldn't exploit issues with weapons balance. You couldn't take the best weapon and just boat the crap out of it.

If you forced everyone in MWO to drive stock mechs, you'd see quite a lot more variety, because it'd be much easier to balance them. Want a bunch of PPC's? That means you gotta drive the Awesome, which means you are gonna be a huge target.

It's not that LL achieved some kind of awesome weapons balance. It's that there was never the ability (or a large player base) to exploit the balance issues that existed.

[Deathlike]

Patch day is coming in a week... and I already know they'll screw it up...

Even if they have lots of goodies.. there will be something broken... besides.. there's an upcoming holiday that'll give them the built in excuse.

[Victor Morson]

PEEFsmash, on 25 June 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

I assume that I don't even have to say this another time, but I will. Get advice from and interact with the competitive community. If you want to get started, my inbox is always open.

There's several units out there that would be extremely helpful. In fact if PGI wants to avoid "cliquishness" that can occur with smaller focus groups, they can merely contact them separately and thus get independent opinion. There is no reason they aren't doing this, unless they believe they honestly have a handle on balance, in which case.. oh boy, we're in for a long ride.

[Asmudius Heng]

PEEFsmash, on 25 June 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

PGI is seriously out of touch. I wish they would take in some more regular feedback from a part of the community other than grognard-ville aka NGNG. NGNG is not representative of that much of the community. Being buddies with them doesn't mean sh*t.

I assume that I don't even have to say this another time, but I will. Get advice from and interact with the competitive community. If you want to get started, my inbox is always open.

While I agree i do like NGNG and what they are doing.

What i do find funny though is that he hosts of the podcast obviously KNOW the issues. I can HEAR them holding back the annoyance with the devs sometimes and not pressing a tender point too hard when the devs are on. They know they owe thier success to being so close to the devs so they cannot appear to be insulting them or questioning them.

I have heard on some of the non dev attended podcasts a very short discussion about convergence and boating being a problem but it was never pursued with any depth. They even have hardpoint limitation fans - cant remember which one but they certainly do not go down that path.

It must be difficult to hold your tongue like that - they are not journalists just fans though and cannot bit the hand that feeds them basically.

Anyway, i am not an NGNG or PGI apologist but it highlights a problem when one of their main interactions with the community feels muzzled - just listen to some of the awkward silences and changes of topic and direction in some of the later podcasts, it is quite telling.

[Victor Morson]

Asmudius Heng, on 25 June 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Anyway, i am not an NGNG or PGI apologist but it highlights a problem when one of their main interactions with the community feels muzzled - just listen to some of the awkward silences and changes of topic and direction in some of the later podcasts, it is quite telling.

I agree; it's all softball because you can tell the devs wouldn't be there if it wasn't softball. It really didn't used to feel like this.

It's like they didn't like what the community had to say, so instead of improving things they just hit mute on us, only to respond with stuff like the tweet that spawned this whole post.

[Soy]

Yeah I stopped reading Ask the Dev threads after they answered some question where a guy asked "do you have any plans to make JJs useful cuz right now they are basically worthless". This was like, I dunno, maybe a month or two ago. The fact that they actually picked that question out of many shows that they really don't feel like engaging real players on real issues. When they do, they select vague *** questions to give enigmatic ambiguous answers to 99% of the time.

Edited by Soy, 25 June 2013 - 04:46 PM.