17 replies to this topic

[skullman86]

It seems like R&R is a hot topic on the game balance forum, and I want to suggest something that might encourage the use of less optimal builds for the sake of balance and variety without resorting to a punitive R&R system again.

The idea:

• For each piece of level one equipment you have equipped, you receive a small bonus on top of your earnings at the end of a battle (wouldn't apply to weapons since everyone is already running level one).

What is level one?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Level_1

What this does is it gives people a reason to pass on upgrades and it gives the standard structures a little more of a side grade-ish feel to them. The system would do what R&R did, in that it would promote the use of lower end tech to earn more currency, but it would achieve this without directly punishing users who choose to upgrade. It would go a long way towards helping new players running trials and individuals without the funds to fully upgrade their mechs.

Also, I think a bonus like this could be of some use in IS vs Clan warfare to give people a reason to stick with IS tech over the Clans.

Edited by skullman86, 17 May 2013 - 07:14 PM.

[Neolisk]

I think we currently don't have enough weapons to divide them into tiers. I mean according to your link, most end up in tier 1.

Edited by Neolisk, 17 May 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[skullman86]

The BT rules already divided them into tiers.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Level_1

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Level_2

All of the upgrades in the upgrade tab are level 2 items. Standard structures, standard engines, single heatsinks, standard armor, and standard guidance would all grant separate bonuses to income and that could even be extended to people who don't run ECM, AMS, CASE, BAP etc.

The idea is to give standard equipment a reason for existing outside of the lore. I'm not too concerned with the length of the list, I'm just trying to come up with a way to make level one equipment worth using again.

Edited by skullman86, 17 May 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[Neolisk]

skullman86, on 17 May 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

All of the upgrades in the upgrade tab are level 2 items. Standard structures, standard engines, single heatsinks, standard armor, and standard guidance would all grant separate bonuses to income and that could even be extended to people who don't run ECM, AMS, CASE, BAP etc.

If it's not just about weapons, I think it's a good idea. Cause right now XLs are the most widely used engines. Same goes for DHS and other upgrades. And it would also help new players to get started. You just got my Yes vote.

[skullman86]

Yeah, I was thinking strictly structural and non lethal type equipment, though weapons could be given some bonuses in IS vs Clan play if PGI is unable to keep IS competitive.

Edited by skullman86, 17 May 2013 - 05:41 PM.

[Deathlike]

This does not interest me. The biggest upgrade that kills the entire bonus system is the upgrade to DHS. You could probably live w/o most of the other options, but it wouldn't really be beneficial.

[skullman86]

SHS are never going to be comparable to DHS as far as performance goes, which is why this might make them worth using outside of waist deep water. DHS may also be better than the rest of the upgrades, but I didn't say level one earnings had to be a flat rate (they could vary from item to item). if there was money to be gained from using level one tech and enough people wanted it, you would see a shift in the way people build their mechs.

My HGN-732, for example, is un-upgraded beyond the ferro armor that it comes stock with. I have a gauss rifle, 3 medium lasers, 1 SRM6, 2 SRM4s, and I get a 1.17 heat efficiency with a stock engine and SHS. Given the choice, I think I would keep this loadout as is for the extra earnings rather than spend 1.5+ mil c-bills on DHS and an unnecessary loadout makeover. It runs fine, but being given a bonus for running it against people using level two tech is icing on the cake...it's hardmode

Edited by skullman86, 17 May 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[Deathlike]

skullman86, on 17 May 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

SHS are never going to be comparable to DHS as far as performance goes, which is why this might make them worth using outside of waist deep water. DHS may also be better than the rest of the upgrades, but I didn't say level one earnings had to be a flat rate (they could vary from item to item). if there was money to be gained from using level one tech and enough people wanted it, you would see a shift in the way people build their mechs.

Actually, that is technically what R&R did, to a certain detriment. It did not end well.

There has always been some suggestions of buffs to SHS (specifically the engine) to address such imbalances (at least making it a sidegrade), but the reality is that SHS for the purposes of this game is inferior 99% of the time.

Quote

My HGN-732, for example, is un-upgraded beyond the ferro armor that it comes stock with. I have a gauss rifle, 3 medium lasers, 1 SRM6, 2 SRM4s, and I get a 1.17 heat efficiency with a stock engine and SHS. Given the choice, I think I would keep this loadout as is for the extra earnings rather than spend 1.5+ mil c-bills on DHS and an unnecessary loadout makeover. It runs fine, but being given a bonus for running it against people using level two tech is icing on the cake...it's hardmode

Self-inflicted hard mode is just that... self-inflicted. FF is level 2 equipment, as described by Sarna, so meh.

[Vassago Rain]

Why?

You already get a bonus for running low-tech stuff, namely, the weight and space savings of not taking advanced electronics, more crits if you don't fit endo, no side torso death without XLs, each artemis launcher is +1 tons and slots, ER PPCs run incredibly hot..

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

Stalkers boating LLs or PPCs often don't use any L2 tech but DHS. All this does is punish lights for being lights, while causing only negligible inconvenience to heavier mechs at most.

[Thomas Covenant]

I like it, you are bringing back R&R abstractly, by flipping it to a positive incentive.

[Neolisk]

Zharot, on 18 May 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

Stalkers boating LLs or PPCs often don't use any L2 tech but DHS.

The bonus can vary depending on the % of L2 tech being used, i.e. not a flat rate.

[MustrumRidcully]

I am not sure. I don't think there is a good solution to the problem, and I am not all that fond of this one, either.

The biggest thing to me is that some new tech comes with drawbacks , and some doesn't. I think the only one that's a clear winner are DHS. THey have always been the most problematic introduction to Battletech, I think.
Artemis costs you extra tonnage and crit slots. XL Engines are riskier. ER PPCs produce more heat... Endo-Steel is more a side grade - if you don'T need the crits, you're better off with it, but if you need them, you're better off without. But it kinda is a boost to lighter mechs that rarely can equip enough gear to fill out their crits.

It might be better to simply have a tier of play for Level 1 Tech, and another for Level 2 (and mixed) Tech.

[Ningyo]

Ok big problem with your proposal though.

L=light, M =medium, H=heavy, A=assault

XL engine - L use always, M always, H often, A sometimes
Ferro Fibrous armor - L use often, M rarely, H never, A never
Endosteel internals - L use always, M always, H rarely, A rarely
Artemis IV - (missile boats only)
Double heat sinks - L use always, M always, H always (but many balistic builds could go single), A almost always (but often to minor advantage)

so this would have a major effect on the light mechs, and the heavy, assault could often easily go level 1 with few changes.

Now if you want a bonus for using stock mechs or something maybe. could make for bad team balancing though hard to say.

Edited by Ningyo, 18 May 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[Thomas Covenant]

Thomas Covenant, on 18 May 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

I like it, you are bringing back R&R abstractly, by flipping it to a positive incentive.

The lower the level of equipment, the higher maintenance bonus you get, divided by weight class so there is the same earning potential in any weight level.

So it would be like, if of your 6 weapon hardpoints, you have all level 1 weapons or empty slots, you get maximum MB.

Unique items if ever added, would be the opposite and deplete this bonus, but maintenance bonus would never go below zero.

Pros:
•Add to role playing element
>players could use lower tier weapons to get money faster, which would be the case in RL, with less maintenance costs
•Make sure the players that need more $ get it faster than those that have accumulated high tier weapons
•Gotta love bonuses

Cons:
•Elo makes this kind of confusing because it will try to give you a roughly 50-50 fight no matter what so players may be motivated to play down their equipment.

The max bonus should be less than the bonus for victory. Perhaps 1/4th.
Even if Elo does have that effect, and you may not win more often, you will be in a higher league of players if you are better outfitted.

If dividing weapons into tiers would be an oversimplification, individual bonuses could be assigned. These bonuses could be applied to the other things you mentioned: heat sinks, armour type ect.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 19 May 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[Nexus Omega]

I Like the Maintenance Bonus Idea,
I would Still run my DHS on everything I wasn't planning on selling, but hey, to each there own.
As many posts above have said, everything is a side grade, bar DHS.
The more little fun tweaks the better

[Pater Mors]

Not a fan of doing it this way, sorry.

There are other, more appropriate ways to do what you're trying to do that will benefit the game far more. See my signature or Homeless Bills thread for examples: http://mwomercs.com/...oats-and-clans/

[Corvus Antaka]

heck yes