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The Power Triangle And A Fix To High Alpha.


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#21 TheBossHammer

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:32 PM

View PostObsidianSpectre, on 26 June 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:


I'm pretty sure I do understand how your idea works, my point was that it's likely to be pretty frustrating a lot of the time. The first person hit is at an immediate disadvantage, and while he can even things up again, he has to do so by hitting back while under an aiming penalty. And what if there are two mechs with AC/2s?

Another issue with this is that most of these high alpha snipers are shooting once, and then going back into cover. This convergence penalty isn't going to do anything about that, and in fact may support this meta as anyone who isn't poptarting or ridge humping and fighting someone who does is going to find it much harder to return fire before the shooter gets back into cover.

True, though my thought was that the people running guns like the AC/5 and 10 would actually be brawlers more than the ones at range. The AC/2 would exist to give snipers a way to screw with each other and protect their team, but this really isn't meant to keep people from popping you at long range, that's why long range combat exists. What it is really meant to do is stop those superpowered long range alphas from working once you close the gap. While snipers will definitely have the advantage at range (as they should), what I would expect is that once the CTF-3D armed with an AC/5 or 10 and 4 medium pulse lasers gets close enough, it should be lights out for that 6 PPC stalker because he won't be able to converge them on a single spot, while the two torso mounted medium lasers on the CTF-3D and the AC/10 go to town and the two arm mounted guns provide additional burst in the initial alpha. It would reward using cover and not just barreling straight towards the opponent, as that Cataphract could round the corner, pop the right torso of the Stalker, walk to the left and have a clean alpha on the Stalker's back armor.

The problem with the game right now isn't that the long range alpha exists. The problem is that it still works when you get close, and it actually is much more effective than taking brawling weapons because you can deal damage as the opponent closes. The 6 PPC stalker can two shot a heavy mech from 90ish meters away, and that's a one shot if it got anything in during the mech's approach. However, that one shot goes to a 4 shot or so if he can't converge his guns. That's the real idea here.

Another way to make this work better would be to limit the effective range of these effects. If the target is in green range, the gun knocks the opponent around etc, but if it's not, the effect gets limited severely and scales linearly.

#22 Lostdragon

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:05 PM

View PostTheBossHammer, on 26 June 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:



Also, in response to Lostdragon, there's only one mech in the game that can't mount at least one of the following: AC/2/5/10/LBX10/20, SRM2/4/6, and MG's. That mech is the Swayback, and it already has torso mounted lasers that won't be affected at all by losing convergence. That's actually a large part of the balancing factor here. Also, I threw out the system that specifically countered the Gauss Rifle. What's left affects almost half the guns in the game, and the other half could have their damage buffed a little (but not the PPC or Gauss).




JR7-F, Death's Knell, SDR-5D, CDA 2A, CDA 2B, BJ 1X, BJ3, and AWS 8Q all have nothing but energy hardpoints. I think the fact you missed considering 8 mechs reinforces my point. None of them are very good already and your system makes them even less desirable.

Edited by Lostdragon, 26 June 2013 - 01:08 PM.


#23 TheBossHammer

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:48 PM

View PostLostdragon, on 26 June 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

JR7-F, Death's Knell, SDR-5D, CDA 2A, CDA 2B, BJ 1X, BJ3, and AWS 8Q all have nothing but energy hardpoints. I think the fact you missed considering 8 mechs reinforces my point. None of them are very good already and your system makes them even less desirable.

All but three of those are high speed light/medium mechs. That pretty much ends your point right there because any of those would be fine if engine caps were set by the fastest variant of a mech, instead of each mech having its own hard speed caps. Also, all of the Cicadas are good right now in a skilled pilot's hands, as are all the jenners and spiders because one PPC on a mech that fast is completely broken in the current meta. Actually, the only thing slowing these mechs down is the current implementation of streaks, and that has nothing to do with what I've suggested, the only thing my system would do to hurt these mechs is give AC/20 users a way to deal with light mechs that use the current circle-jerk tactic, and that's not a bad thing in any possible way. And yes, I forgot about those mechs, but that is because my point was that there is no other Energy only mech besides the Swayback that has a good enough hardpoint set to make for a good alpha strike, not because I was trying to say that it was the only energy based mech. The Swayback was the only mech that was relevant to the conversation.

#24 PEEFsmash

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostTheBossHammer, on 26 June 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

the larger autocannons (AC10, LBX 10, AC20) should actually throw the target's torso off to one side if you hit in the side torso, and light mechs should get completely blown off their feet if they get hit by an AC/20.


Ohhh, that's what they were missing! I was wondering what would make AC20 good against lights! Now, when their legs get 1-shotted, they will ALSO be completely blown off of their feet foot so that you can tee them up again. Perfect, now finally AC20s will be worth using against lights.

#25 Wildstreak

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:15 PM

#1 is real easy, make Autocannon work as they should firing a stream of projectiles that splash across a target like Lasers do. Right now, I cannot even call them ACs anymore especially after Spectating a Jager shooting them and as he fired, I could see a brief second display of what looked like Rockets coming out of the ACs. We do not have ACs, we have Rocket Launchers.

#26 TheBossHammer

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:28 PM

View PostLostdragon, on 26 June 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

JR7-F, Death's Knell, SDR-5D, CDA 2A, CDA 2B, BJ 1X, BJ3, and AWS 8Q all have nothing but energy hardpoints. I think the fact you missed considering 8 mechs reinforces my point. None of them are very good already and your system makes them even less desirable.

Adding to my prior reply, I already suggested that buffing all of the beam based weapons significantly would help solve the problem. The reality is that beam weapons were the DPS weapons of the Battletech universe anyway, and with accuracy being as high as it is in Mechwarrior, it would not be bad at all to make the role of laser weapons to core the enemy asap, and use ballistics as control weapons.

View PostPEEFsmash, on 27 June 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:


Ohhh, that's what they were missing! I was wondering what would make AC20 good against lights! Now, when their legs get 1-shotted, they will ALSO be completely blown off of their feet foot so that you can tee them up again. Perfect, now finally AC20s will be worth using against lights.

PFFFFFTTTTTTT.......dude, it takes two AC/20 shots to pop the legs on a light, and that's only if the guy piloting the light was dumb and pulled a little armor off of them. Realistically it's 3 shots, and if you are halfway decent at piloting a light mech, that should never, EVER happen, except by luck. Try not running circles around your target and actually using light mechs as they should be, which is to strafe your opponent and limit the time you are in his arcs to under 2 seconds, before accounting for his reaction time. You won't get hit by AC/20's in that scenario, ever. There is no mech that can mount the 2 AC/20's required to one shot a light's mech that has those AC/20's in the arms with the actuators required to hit a mech that strafes it. If you think the AC/20 is a counter to light mechs, you are bad at piloting light mechs.

View PostMerchant, on 27 June 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

#1 is real easy, make Autocannon work as they should firing a stream of projectiles that splash across a target like Lasers do. Right now, I cannot even call them ACs anymore especially after Spectating a Jager shooting them and as he fired, I could see a brief second display of what looked like Rockets coming out of the ACs. We do not have ACs, we have Rocket Launchers.

Personally, I agree, but PGI has been going with this implementation from the start and I don't think it's going to change. I'd love to see this happen though.





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