41 replies to this topic

[FactorlanP]

Ok... Not trying to start an argument here. Just really want to hear thoughts from folks...

Obviously, the current state of PPCs and erPPCs and how they are being used in the game are a hot topic for discussion.

I have read numerous times, that to simply bump up PPC and erPPC heat is not a good option because it will punish the smaller mechs who commonly use the weapons, while the real problems are the mechs who are able to "boat" them.

My question is this... Why?

If a weapon is performing so well that it is used by almost everyone, isn't it also performing too well when mounted on a Light or Medium? I would suggest that these weapons are too good on ALL chassis, not just those able to mount multiples of them.



Personally, I would like to see PPC and erPPC heat bumped up a bit AND I would like to see REAL drawbacks to overheating. I think that this may prove to be the simplest approach, requiring no new systems or confusing rules (such as those that the Devs have mentioned).


If that doesn't work, then I would be a proponent of lowering the max heat capacity AND increasing the rate of heat dissipation as others have proposed. I would also add REAL drawbacks to overheating.

In an ideal world, I would like to see convergence addressed. I would allow each pilot to pre-set the distance at which his weapons converge in the mech lab. Then, on the battlefield the pilot can snap fire at that range to hit a pin point. At ANY other range, the pilot must maintain a target lock and hold the crosshairs on the target until convergence is achieved. I would set the rate of convergence to be somewhat slow, potentially taking several seconds to get a convergence lock. Then I would have pilot skills and possibly modules available to improve convergence times.

Edited by FactorlanP, 26 June 2013 - 12:36 PM.

[Tezcatli]

They should have a debuff when overheating. If you over heat. For every 10% you go over, you lose 5% heat dissipation permanently, until eventually you melt your heat sinks and can no longer power back up.

[Tennex]

i don't see why it would be so hard to increase PPC/ERPPC's heat by say 10%

[FactorlanP]

Tennex, on 26 June 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

i don't see why it would be so hard to increase PPC/ERPPC's heat by say 10%

I tend to agree. I'm hoping for an explanation from the folks who feel that this would unfairly punish mechs who are not mounting multiples of the weapon.

[FupDup]

Tennex, on 26 June 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

i don't see why it would be so hard to increase PPC/ERPPC's heat by say 10%

Because opening up weapons.xml and changing PPC.heat and ERPPC.heat is hard.

[KuruptU4Fun]

FupDup, on 26 June 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Because opening up weapons.xml and changing PPC.heat and ERPPC.heat is hard.

So is finding the other hundred or so Topics about PPC's and how they need to be changed. But that obviously can be harder than any other thing PGI needs to do when prompted to in the Forums.

[Livewyr]

Dunno if you noticed.. PGI reads on volume, not so much on quality of responses.

[FupDup]

Livewyr, on 26 June 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Dunno if you noticed.. PGI reads on volume, not so much on quality of responses.

There's a huge volume asking for buffs to SRMs and Pulse Lasers, but I don't see any patches buffing them.

[SilentWolff]

The bigger issue of why PPC's are so popular is PGI's idea to make lasers damage over time. It comes down to using a weapon like the PPC, that shoots instantly with the ability to get back down into cover, vs a weapon like lasers that you have to keep held on the target, all the while you are exposed to enemy fire. Its poor weapon design that makes PPC's lord of the battlefield.
Now that doesnt mean that PPC's should'nt be tweak some, I think most will agree they do.

[Mercules]

FactorlanP, on 26 June 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

I tend to agree. I'm hoping for an explanation from the folks who feel that this would unfairly punish mechs who are not mounting multiples of the weapon.

I use an ERPPC on my Commando for a few simple reasons. It isn't because the PPC is a much better weapon. In fact I could increase my damage/heat or damage/weight ratios a lot with Medium Lasers. Which means I could be doing more damage with my Death Knell, for example, with 4 Medium Lasers.

4 Medium Lasers = 20 damage, 12 heat, and 4 tons.
1 ERPPC = 10 damage, 11 heat, and 7 tons.

I can double my damage for 1 more heat and 3 extra tons for DHS to drop that heat further. Why use the ERPPC then?

My primary reason is RANGE. It's death to get close to larger mechs now. At 700m I can switch up my speed and change my movement angles and mess with their aim. At 350m it isn't enough to make them miss frequently. At 350M my Medium Lasers are doing only a little over 3 damage each and not as much of a heat break for me. Since the ERPPC gives me the range to stay where I can do damage and still dodge shots I go with that.

In addition the PPC lets me non-ECM mech counter ECM, so to speak. It's a soft counter but one I can use out to the range of my sensors and lets me drop a shot on a target and hit "R" so that my team is aware it is there even if it doesn't last long.

I now scout from 500+ meters instead of 200m.

[Sheraf]

Tezcatli, on 26 June 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

They should have a debuff when overheating. If you over heat. For every 10% you go over, you lose 5% heat dissipation permanently, until eventually you melt your heat sinks and can no longer power back up.

Interesting idea . If your heatsink has a chance to be damaged from overheat, that will prevent mass use of PPC yet doesn't affect any other type of weapons. Why don't we implement this insetad of heat penalty? It makes sense that your heatsink is damaged upon overheating

Edited by Sheraf, 26 June 2013 - 02:20 PM.

[MuonNeutrino]

The reason that a flat heat nerf (for example) is bad is because the power of pinpoint alpha strikes means that overall value of the weapon is not a constant. Each individual PPC's value in combat increases the more additional PPCs it's being paired up with, because 40 points of damage to a single location is worth *more* than 4 times as much as 10 points is.

A mech mounting 2 PPCs is not overpowered. A mech mounting 6 PPCs has 3 times the damage, at three times the weight and heat, but it has much more than three times the combat effectiveness thanks to being able to alpha them into a single location. It's that non-linear scaling that makes a single-value nerf inappropriate.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Livewyr, on 26 June 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Dunno if you noticed.. PGI reads on volume, not so much on quality of responses.

So would you read 200 copies of the Illiad if stacked in front of you instead of the one Cliff Notes book on the subject?

[Dude42]

Return PPCs to previous heat values. Implement a stiffer heat penalty system. Remove instant convergence.

"But I like running around with a PPC on my Spider" - Tough. Deal with it or mount a more sane weapon.

Edited by Dude42, 26 June 2013 - 02:32 PM.

[TB Freelancer]

A few very simple things would go a long way to preventing the issue I think....

....make heat management skill based.

- Get rid of Betty's heat warning for all but those players with <100 (arbitrary number) battles and/or less than 1:1 W/L ratios.
- Increase shut down time based on weight i.e. Light mechs shut down at current levels, Mediums 2x longer, Heavies 3x longer and Assaults 4x longer.
- Going over 90% heat results in 1/4 the mech turning, torso, arm and acceleration rates, and jump jets cease to function until the mech cools back down to 75%.
- If heat passes 100%, all sensor or electronics upgrades cease to function be it ECM, BAP, Artimese, or modules. Require a mech to cool down below 25% and perform a shut down, restart sequence to reactivate all disabled functions....5 seconds per disabled ability.

In simple terms. Make going past 100% or staying on the edge of overheating have lasting and tangible consequences that are highly desirable to avoid. Make going too far (i.e. firing 5+ ppcs when at over 90% heat) result in instant death.

EDIT: As it is, I don't have a problem with the weapons themselves for the most part. They aren't the problem, just a symptom of something else that most are too blind to see....

...when a finger points to the moon. The imbecile stares at the finger.

Edited by TB Freelancer, 26 June 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Dude42, on 26 June 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Return PPCs to previous heat values. Implement a stiffer heat penalty system. Remove instant convergence.

"But I like running around with a PPC on my Spider" - Tough. Deal with it or mount a more sane weapon.

Implementing a stiffer heat penalty across the board isn't going to solve any problems. Simply because all it will do is make people drop 1 maybe 2 boated weapons or increase the use of the cool shot. Or it will stop the lighter mechs from carrying weapons that can make a difference if used, like a PPC Spider. That brings with it demands to buff every other weapon and that starts the whole process all over again.

Stopping the instantaneous convergence may be a solution, but who knows?

[Dude42]

KuruptU4Fun, on 26 June 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Implementing a stiffer heat penalty across the board isn't going to solve any problems. Simply because all it will do is make people drop 1 maybe 2 boated weapons or increase the use of the cool shot. Or it will stop the lighter mechs from carrying weapons that can make a difference if used, like a PPC Spider. That brings with it demands to buff every other weapon and that starts the whole process all over again.

Stopping the instantaneous convergence may be a solution, but who knows?

Stiffer heat penalties across the board would benefit everyone as it would add another thing which you have to actively pay attention to and manage, thus, raising the skill cap. Now the PPC+Gauss Snipers have to worry about a little more than "Can I point and click the robot?"

Currently, what is the difference between the best player in the game in a 4PPC+Guass Cheesewagon, and an average player in a 4PPC+Guass Cheesewagon? The answer, not much, assuming they can both point and click. I want to increase that disparity. I want the average player to be completely outclassed in all aspects of the game, from point and clickiness, to situational awareness to heat management. It's my opinion that widening that gap benefits everyone.

A PPC Spider is an abomination.

Seriously. "But I want to equip PPCs on my Spider" is not a reason not to do something about the poor state of the game.

Edited by Dude42, 26 June 2013 - 03:04 PM.

[senaiboy]

PPC Spider represents what is wrong with PPC - it is too effective a weapon (taking into consideration range, damage, heat, etc). Upping PPC's heat will not stop a Spider from equipping PPC, merely make it fire less frequently.

I agree with increasing PPC's heat mainly to reduce its effectiveness and reduce the current PPC sniping meta, so people will at least consider bringing other weapons more. It is NOT to solve the high alpha meta, nor will it solve the boating issue.

[CancR]

FactorlanP, on 26 June 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

More of the same gobshite here

It's not boats that are the problem
It's not PPC(s) that are the problem
The problem is that this is a team based game, but no one is interested in treating it as such. We need Tonnage limits.

No one can win a game of starcraft by building only 1 unit, or a game of soccer with all centers, or tibes with all cappers.
Someday some one will get this very simple thing through their head.

[Dude42]

CancR, on 26 June 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

It's not boats that are the problem
It's not PPC(s) that are the problem
The problem is that this is a team based game, but no one is interested in treating it as such. We need Tonnage limits.

No one can win a game of starcraft by building only 1 unit, or a game of soccer with all centers, or tibes with all cappers.
Someday some one will get this very simple thing through their head.

I'm not sure I follow. With tonnage limits wouldn't it just become about packing as many PPCs into the allowed tonnage limit? For example, if the team tonnage limit was 500 tons, wouldn't they just find out the highest number of PPCs+Guass rifles that you could cram into a 500 ton limit? Wouldn't it then become Spreadsheet Warrior? We'll have formulas for calculating "max PPCs" or "Max Combined Alpha" for a given tonnage limit.

While I would love tonnage limits for other reasons, I don't see how it would help stop CheeseWarrior Online.

Edited by Dude42, 26 June 2013 - 03:44 PM.