69 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Roland, on 30 June 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Making AC's into terribad machine guns, like the UAC's were in MW4, is one of the worst possible things you could do to this game.

Seriously, it's like you people don't even consider what the actual rammifications of your proposed changes would be.

We'd have more than one kind, as we're supposed to get variants. The ramification is a game that plays more like mechwarrior and less like Call of Duty where the only viable gun is a sniper rifle, and then it's only viable if you use that sniper rifle as a shotgun.

A battle between mechs is a lot more fun if the fight lasts more than 3 seconds, and involves more than "Boom, headshot," when you actually hit the person in the side torso.

Edited by Koniving, 30 June 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[XFactor777]

FupDup, on 30 June 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Those mechs have four different weapon groups each and are thus not specialized. In the context of MWO, generalists (other than PPC boats which are good in all tasks but especially long range) are ineffective because they can't go through doubled armor as fast as specialists. Also, having that many weapon groups means you have to manage the ranges of each and that can distract you from more important things like the actual fight (i.e. torso twisting damage). Having more than 3 weapon groups is just plain bad. The Hellstar only has to worry about a single weapon group, freeing the pilot's senses to be concentrated on actual combat instead of range management (don't fire weapons that aren't in range or you waste ammo/heat).

Range means nothing when most fights take place inside 300m anyway and none of those weapons have a min range in fact the Kodiaks med lasers alone have a 56 point alpha and in the UAC 20 and the streak 6s and that over 100 at the most common ranges the hellstar is just a scapegoat for the ppc fear this community has developed

[wolf74]

If you all think a Dual AC20 Mech is bad, Wait until the Clans show up with a Ultra AC/20 who weight is only 12ton! Clan Hunchback IIC anyone? A pair of Torso Mounted Ultra AC/20 Stock on the Mech. This Mech is a 50ton version of the K2 we have in game now but meaner do to the fact it can Double Tap Both AC/20s .

Edited by wolf74, 30 June 2013 - 04:29 PM.

[FupDup]

XFactor777, on 30 June 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Range means nothing when most fights take place inside 300m

When was the last time you played Mechwarrior: Online? Are you aware of the current long-range/PPC meta?

XFactor777, on 30 June 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

anyway and none of those weapons have a min range

Neither does the ERPPC. Each does 15 damage at point-blank.

XFactor777, on 30 June 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

in fact the Kodiaks med lasers alone have a 56 point alpha

Which has inferior range, spread-out damage due to beam duration, and has to hold on target for a full second. The ERPPCs can peek and fire a lot faster without taking any damage most of the time (or at least reducing the damage received). Advantage still belongs to the ERPPC sniper.

XFactor777, on 30 June 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

and in the UAC 20

That's the only scary part about the Kodiak. Still, 4 ERPPC has dramatically longer range and is all-around more versatile.

XFactor777, on 30 June 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

and the streak 6s and that over 100 at the most common ranges

Most common ranges are probably ~500-1000m, with an average of ~650 (estimates). Streak SRMs are going to get nerfed hard soon, so their damage will also spread all over the place just like the ERML. This leaves the Kodiak with only a single pinpoint-accurate weapon (UAC/20). The [ER]PPC is currently the most widely-used weapon in the game, unless you're in the steering wheel underhive.

XFactor777, on 30 June 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

the hellstar is just a scapegoat for the ppc fear this community has developed

Not my fault that the ERPPC is mathematically superior and proven to win battles (PGI's fault and sorta Fasa's fault for making their TT stats).

Edited by FupDup, 30 June 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[wolf74]

Oh, Forgot to say the Clan Ultra AC/20 also has a longer effective attack Range than the Current one we see, too . Current ac/20 range is 270m with a tap range of 810m. The Clan Ultra AC/20 effective range is 360m with a tap range 1080m about if they follow books spec that is.

Edited by wolf74, 30 June 2013 - 05:36 PM.

[FupDup]

wolf74, on 30 June 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

Oh, For got to say the Clan Ultra AC/20 also has a longer effective attack Range than the Current one we see, too .

Yup, 360m to be precise (which makes for a max range of 1080m).

[Demuder]

I see a lot of theorizing and smack talk about the AC40, however, there are some simple facts.

Fun ? Right, because it's always fun to play a difficult, ineffective build. People will gravitate to the path of least resistance, we all know that, no matter how "fun" something is. Of course it's "fun" to point, click and obliterate. Let's take "point, click and obliterate" out of that sentence and see how much "fun" is left. Let's call things what they are.

Has more drawbacks than rewards ? Of course it does, that's why in every match you get at least one Jag AC40 and at least one CTF-3D with dual gauss. Because they are very risky builds that do not outperform by far other heavy class builds.

The people who dreamed of and designed the AC20 never intended it to deal 20 damage, instantly on one location. You can argue all you want, but that's the simple fact about it. The fact that MWO allows for two of them to hit one location instantly, is simply, double that, over the top. Same with the rest of the ACs, but they are so overshadowed by the AC20 that you don't even notice.

[Escef]

dimstog, on 01 July 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

The people who dreamed of and designed the AC20 never intended it to deal 20 damage, instantly on one location.

Except, y'know, the people who dreamed of and designed it put it into table top Battletech doing exactly what you say they did not intend.

[Schrottfrosch]

Escef, on 01 July 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

Except, y'know, the people who dreamed of and designed it put it into table top Battletech doing exactly what you say they did not intend.

The AC/20 rules of the tabletop are simplifications, so that you do not have to waste time with throwing dice - warhammer 40k would have used another ruleset for ACs, maybe more like their assault cannon where you first had to determine how many shots are being fired and then determine which of those shots hit (I dont have the newest iteration of WH40K, I last played I think 3rd edition). This is way more complicated, which lead to unnecessary long playing sessions - The to hit role - the dice role, that determines wether you hit or miss with a certain weapon - is replaced by individual player skill. In the TT game I would say around 50% of all shots missed as an average, while in this game I have actually no problems to hit an enemy mech, and I consider myself a bad shot.

With that said, a big problem of how this game handles the AC/20 is, that it tries to simulate exactly this simulation of the tabletop game without factoring in the necessary first steps: 1. to hit role and 2. random determination of what hitzone has been hit. You would have to at least half the damage of the AC/20 to simulate those steps...

Also it ignores the weapon description, which basically says that ACs fire bursts. This is also being described in the books.

People are way to used to the AC/20 delivering all its damage to one spot in one press of the button because it is like that in the TT-rules and in all the earlier iterations of MW - computer games.

I think even if it sounds a bit revolutionary it would be way better to laserfy PPCs and AC/20s, that means letting them fire bursts or streams that deliver damage over time and add recoil, so that you need to work to get all damage delivered into one spot - also in the case you have 2 AC/20s in the arms, you should have to alternate your fire, because with the body of the mech you can only compensate for recoil of one arm while firing. Regarding the Gauss-rifle I would suggest to half the damage and double RoF but add quite a bit of recoil, so that it is hard to keep up with the the high RoF.

[Demuder]

Escef, on 01 July 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

Except, y'know, the people who dreamed of and designed it put it into table top Battletech doing exactly what you say they did not intend.

Yeah, I know, I regretted hitting post the second I posted that but I was kinda in a hurry. What I meant was 2xAC20 in the same spot instantly. Sure, there's double armor here, but manual aiming (skill^TM) and convergence makes it much easier to put those double shots in the same place than in the random TT dice. It doesn't make that much skill really.

Personally, what really annoys me with AC40s is the suicidal beeline they tend to make for the enemy line, they know they will die but most of the time manage to take one or two with them. You rarely see that with other loadouts. It's a tactic that simply should not be rewarded with a couple of kills. Or the endless waiting behind a rock for someone to step in front of them. Ambush ? Sure, but it's the only build more or less that is a one-click ambush, except for the equally broken PPC boats.

In short, I just think those builds ruin the gameplay. Sure you can easily kills them, especially if the team has basic knowledge, but they ruin the flow of the game both for their team or the opponents'.