108 replies to this topic

[blinkin]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 28 June 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

You need to elaborate a bit more on this.

Solo PUGGING, LRM's can either be a complete waste of time or reap utter devastation depending on who you get matched against.

Pick up 4 Mans, You'll see the same as solo PUGGING, depends on how good the random people you grouped with are.

Solid 4 Man, You'll do great because you are used to working together while using LRM's while preying on PUGS. This isn't really a function of LRM's, it's a function of Solid 4 Man's owning it up in the Solo Queue, you'd still be better off if the whole team had 3-4 PPC"s and Gauss Rifles.

8 Mans against real teams who practice, LRM's are basically non-existent unless it's a joke build/joke game. Because good players understand how to avoid them/mitigate them/get in their face and own them.

like i said i maximize my suppression effects. most of my kills are random kill stealing from my group. there are very few cases where i do the majority of the damage on the mech, BUT i do a very good job of keeping them from aiming or even thinking straight.

yeah they might be able to completely protect themselves from my LRM but if they have all hidden in a hole, then it is much easier for my team to come down on top of them and murder their cluster ****. if all of their snipers are trapped behind cover it is much better than my team having to face a coherent line.

Edited by blinkin, 28 June 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[Ningyo]

You also missed tons of true myths:

LRM spread is causing almost all missiles to hit CT

False: there is a missile damage bug so your CT takes more damage per hit, and other parts of your mech take less damage this makes it appear as though your CT is getting hit by more than it actually is.

Missiles are shooting through my back and hitting my front even though I am facing away from them

False: the missile arc especially if indirect or at long range will end at a very steep downward angle that hits the top of your mech. Much of the top of most mechs are designated as front hitboxes not rear so you take much of the damage to your front. It is not going through your mech however.

Any mech going over 100kph cannot be hit by LRMs

Halfway TRUE: if it is moving straight toward or away from you right before the missiles impact many will hit, if it is moving perpendicular to the missile flight path almost all will miss. Also there is a very advanced technique which can increase your odds of hitting them. (First fire at the mech, then purposely lose missile lock on it. Shortly before the missiles will hit the ground (this depends on your ping) reacquire missile lock; you need to have the server gain the lock about 50m before missiles impact the ground. At this point the missiles will turn to aim for the target again due to their turning radius they should drop to around 10-30m off the ground and be going at a low angle toward the enemy mech. At this angle even a fast mech will often get hit by nearly all missiles. Oh and it they are changing elevation often this may not work well. {And yes this takes a lot of skill to pull off, so do not expect to do it even half the time})

Missiles don't hit targets while they are using Jumpjets.

Halfway TRUE: They will hit though if you are in the process of accelerating upwards, many will go beneath your feet, and most others will impact on your legs (which presently take lower damage per missile hitting them). Jumping toward the incoming missiles will still have most of them hit you, even above the legs. Jumping away or to the side will reduce the number hitting you.

[KuruptU4Fun]

In all honesty OP I agree with your post, and I did read it all with interest. What I think is that most people are ab-horridly scared of the Streak Cat, and the Boated LRM Cat. But what most people never try is what was referred to as a Whoosh Cat (CPLT - A1) It (mine) carries 2xLRM 10 w Artemis and 2xSRM6 w Artemis. It only goes 80 kph when you're Pilot skills are above Elite. But where it shines is within that 270 meter range where LRM's can lock and detonate and SRM's don't blow up prematurely. Well worth the effort if you've got even a small (2 person) premade going..

[KuruptU4Fun]

Wow, when people put YOU ARE WRONG in bold and italic but can't come up with a constructive reason as to why then they must be right! Or more likely just an *******!

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 28 June 2013 - 04:17 PM.

[Ningyo]

As far as I know the standard method for replying inside a quote is bold italic, different color is preferable, but I was not up to modifying color of text throughout the whole reply if its even supported?

Also if you read his post or mine at all you would realize I did explain things further up along the wall of text multiple times.

Please read other peoples posts before making random trolls about them (If you read and disagree or have better information please give constructive feedback)

[Victor Morson]

Ningyo, on 28 June 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

LRM spread is causing almost all missiles to hit CT

False: there is a missile damage bug so your CT takes more damage per hit, and other parts of your mech take less damage this makes it appear as though your CT is getting hit by more than it actually is.

This bug has been "resolved" by the removal of usable splash damage since two major patches ago.

Ningyo, on 28 June 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Missiles are shooting through my back and hitting my front even though I am facing away from them

False: the missile arc especially if indirect or at long range will end at a very steep downward angle that hits the top of your mech. Much of the top of most mechs are designated as front hitboxes not rear so you take much of the damage to your front. It is not going through your mech however.

Again two patches ago.

I think everything you think about LRMs is from a previous patch, in fact, so I'll stop here to avoid being redundant. Behavior was altered radically after the things you mention.

[Deathlike]

blinkin, on 28 June 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

what? you mean the lemming rush through the open field isn't a good plan?

Lemmings is a great game. It's even more fun when you make them die... (preferably through explosions)

Edited by Deathlike, 28 June 2013 - 04:37 PM.

[Ningyo]

Actually no the CT damage bug is still going strong it has NOTHING to do with the old Splash bug. Get a raven 3L or other mech with a single tube launcher, and put a LRM 5 in that hardpoint.

Get a friend preferably on the other team make take a bunch of drops to manage, on the same side you could do this with dumbfiring the missiles.


Go off somewhere and record (in good enough resolution to see) your game.

Fire your missiles directly from the front, side, and back till different parts have had all armor removed. You should have both mechs standing still for this so you can accurately see which locations are being hit. from this you can calculate the actual damage being done per hit.

PRESENTLY based on IN-GAME TESTING there is a damage bug such that CT takes more damage than intended per missile hit. (with the single tube launcher each missile will impact seperately so you can get an exact count)

There may also be a damage bug where larger mechs take more damage and smaller take less damage. I have not been able to confirm this yet though due to possible hit detection problems with my testing.

YES there once was a buggy splash damage system that ALSO caused higher CT damage, however there are other bugs still occurring.

I strongly suggest you do more testing on the present state of missiles.

Oh and all my data is from after that patch.

if you wish for more testing data though this is not all I have done refer to:

http://mwomercs.com/...-damagescreens/
my post is 8th I think though OP has some data as well. We used different methods however.

Edited by Ningyo, 28 June 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Ningyo, on 28 June 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Actually no the CT damage bug is still going strong it has NOTHING to do with the old Splash bug. Get a raven 3L or other mech with a single tube launcher, and put a LRM 5 in that hardpoint.

This specific combo - LRM5 and single tube launcher - does have a quirk with it. I will give you that; I've been talking openly about experimenting with why it works better than it does on the forums for some time now, on a Trebuchet.

I can't explain with accuracy why it works as well as it does, because it shouldn't, and would not dare to try now without way more hard data than I have access to.

Ningyo, on 28 June 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

PRESENTLY based on IN-GAME TESTING there is a damage bug such that CT takes more damage than intended per missile hit. (with the single tube launcher each missile will impact seperately so you can get an exact count)

Now, outside of your first point, what you are seeing is not the CT favoritism bug that you saw previously.

What you are seeing is with the current arc they are hitting "skirts" a lot more, and even the rear of the "skirt" counts as front arc missiles. It's easy to mistake and is a quirk of the "skirt" than it is the LRM.

[Roland]

I decided to break out my old A1, just to see how LRM's were.

Honestly, they are pretty freaking strong right now. 2 15's+A will absolutely ruin a mech.

[Ningyo]

No it is not that by every metric a player can see, % total HP of mech viewable in lance group, armor removed based on total the mech has, damage statistics from forum stats page. They all agree that CT takes more than 1.1 damage per missile hitting it, and other parts of a mech take less.

From the data I recorded from the stats page you can see that the damage does not equal 1.1 per hit.

Some of them show above 1.1 damage, I did not post recordings of every match or save them due to disk space, but those matches were almost always against lots of assaults that stood in the open facing me. (tons of CT hits) When testing with single missile launches and similar methods it confirms this.

Some data would be:
Format: Fired/Hit(%hit)/Damage(damage per hit)(damage per fire)
LRM 20__________________________LRM 15_______________________K__A__w__D__P__Dmg_K:R
540/192(35.55%)/227(1.18)(0.42)_____420/162(38.57%)/201(1.24)(0.48)___2__1__L__y__1__444__4:8
240/62(25.83%)/73(1.18)(0.30)_______345/90(26.09%)/122(1.36)(0.35)____1__1__L__y__4__194__7:5
810/234(28.89%)/272(1.16)(0.34)_____630/231(36.67%)/285(1.23)(0.45)___4__3__w__n__1__557__8:2
for ones with massively lower damage per hit some are
710/189(26.62%)/149(0.79)(0.21)_____530/156(29.43%)/123(0.79)(0.23)___0__5__w__y__2__292__8:6
680/185(27.21%)/126(0.68)(0.19)_____540/173(32.04%)/112(0.65)(0.21)___1__0__L__y__2__243__1:7
700/203(29.00%)/145(0.71)(0.21)_____540/171(31.67%)/126(0.74)(0.23)___1__3__w__n__5__272__8:0
note that these are extreme examples overall data for 50 matches after the june 5th patch was
LRM 20: 32785/10363(31.61%)/9593(0.93)(0.29)
LRM 15: 25000/9009(36.04%)/8597(0.95)(0.34)
Kills: 74 Assists: 159 Wins: 36 Deaths: 19 Placed: 2.3 Damage: 18432 Teams Kill Ratio: 326 : 173


Now I considered that the stats might be incorrect. However checking damage on stats page vs damage at end of match was identical. Also the damage in stats was within a very small margin of error compared to testing using single launch tubes and such.


OH and @ Roland, one of my favorite LRM mechs is the catapult A1 with 2 LRM15, and 4 SSRM its good at long range, and good at destroying lights. AND between 190-260m it just wrecks things. Also really like Stalker 5x LRM5, 3xERPPC though neither of these are boats really.

Edited by Ningyo, 28 June 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[trollocaustic]

Myth: You a correct
Truth: You are crying

[Lycan]

Deathlike, on 28 June 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Lemmings is a great game. It's even more fun when you make them die... (preferably through explosions)

QFT

[scJazz]

Phaesphoros, on 28 June 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

Unfortunately, the myths are not objectively formulated (biased) and many answers are (based on) opinions, without clearly stating so (or providing support/evidence).

Some of the responses are also at least inacurate, e.g.

A non-artemis LRM15 is more efficient (tonnage) than a LRM10 or LRM20; it weighs 7 t and does over 16 dmg. That is neither one of the heaviest weapon nor is it particularily ammo-hungry if you don't boat it. You might want to add one more ton of ammo as compared to ballistics, dependent on how you use them (if it's your primary weapon, more ammo per launcher).

I appreciate your write-up, but I don't know if it helps in the way it's formulated.

Edit: IMO the current missile mechanics are not good.

Wow... just wow... ummm you called a non-artemis LRM15 efficient and stated its damage as 16 pts and called the OP in-accurate?!?

MMMM kay... just stick with your PPCs and let missile users have a nice little chat OK?

Thanks.

[soarra]

lol are easy mode and yes i have used them. 2 lrm15 w/artemis and tag and if you do less than 500 dmg 3 kills you should just quit.. Its a joke.

[InRev]

Sephlock, on 28 June 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Don't worry, there is a super harsh nerf slated for SSRMs, so soon we may see less mechs running AMS!

Everybody wins!....

I'm going insane looking for info on what this nerf is supposed to be. I know they're changing the way SSRMs track mech "bones" but I didn't find that to be "super harsh". Is there another one?

Also, number one personal reason why LRMs are annoying to use: can't target swap. Once you launch a volley, you're babysitting them til they land. If another target pops up, tough gazongas. Either say goodbye to your first volley, thus wasting them or gamble on the new target.

Annoying as hell.

[Karenai]

I like LRM. I use them even when they are usless. Because I like the playstyle.
But OP made such a lengthly text, with so many errors.

Myth: Easy to use. (Yes, they are easy to use but most people still mess it up)

LRM are not the hardest to use, by a long stretch. They are just different. No other weapon is even remotly comparable to the LRM. They are hard to use correctly. That is a whole different thing.

Myth: Indirect fire. (Yes, there is indirect fire and yes it is very effective if used right. It takes tonnes of ammo, but it is worth it, most of the time)

Myth: No need for Artemis IV and TAG (Well, you needed Artemis to hit fast mechs. Now you just dont hit them. Because no splash. TAG is must have because of ECM)

Myth: LRM are a support weapon and should not be able to kill anyone by themselfs. (Ulric Kerensky was killed by LRM fire with TAG...)

Myth: You can put some LRM on you mech and be fine. (Almost never)

Myth: LRMs=boats (I think OP never played against me while LRM were usefull, but not completly op. Large LRM boats are awesome, when LRM do actually some damage. BUT well played fast LRM boats with lasers are better in the right hands.)

Myth: There are more important things to balance. (Some things are worse. But keeping LRM for months at a usless state was a shot tho the knee.)

Quick Myths:

- TAG won't help you hit lights | YES IT DOES! The tracking + grouping is vital or you won't do a thing to fast movers!
You aint gonna hit those scouts at the time. Not realy, unless they are stupid. But when LRM have splash, yeah go for TAG.
- LRMs go dumbfire before they hit you | NO THEY DON'T! If you think you see this, the LRM user lost lock!
LRM go dumbfire in the very last moments of their flight, that is why you cannot hit a realy fast target without splash and why with splash scouts were destroyed trough their legs only. That is why Artemis IV and TAG are imporatant. They reduce the ammount of straight dumbfire flight time.
- LRMs are just vague aiming at red boxes and pressing buttons! | SURE.. if you want the damage output of a flamer Spider, doubled by the fact 80% of your shots will miss as locks are lost.
You do not have to keep the target in your crossfire. Actually you can aquire a target and keep it in lock even with the jumpjet shake just fine. Providing you wont puke. LRM are not only pushing buttons. 90% of LRM fire is position, postition and position.
- LRMs aren't supposed to be kill weapons! | ALREADY COVERED, but worth repeating: This meme needs to die. It's got no basis in BattleTech or MW:O. They should be exceptional kill weapons, in their niche environment (open terrain).
Yes, LRM should kill anyone who ignores them. But they should not be able to hit anything even behind double the mechs hight cover.
- LRMs hit me indirect all the time, and they kick the crap out of me! OP! | Cockpit shake and lots of blaring sounds =/= doing much damage.
Someone is keeping you in lock, or you do not move around inside your cover. Those LRM which had lock just now, will hit THE LAST KNOWN TARGET SPOT. If you just go out of sight and stand there, they WILL hit you right there where you are standing.

PS. Myth: Artemis IV needs line of sight. (Unless they hotfixed it already, which I doubt, because it would be loud in the forums, Artemis IV is broken and does NOT need line of sight at the moment. That is one of the reasons we had the last LRMcalypse. New flight path while without line of sight but WITH Artemis IV bonus made them come straight down into the torso/cockpit+the broken damage.)

You have some very good points, but they lose some coherence on the way. Try streamlining the points. Break the subpoints down into their own Myths or something.

[Brilig]

Like the in depth description of what using LRMs effectively is like. I think you nailed most of it. Though I don't think LRMs really need much of a buff right now.

I would like to see things like Artemis, and TAG increase LRM tracking ability instead of tightening their spread. That could make it easier to get some hits in on moving targets, but keep the damage a little more spread out.

[Victor Morson]

soarra, on 28 June 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

lol are easy mode and yes i have used them. 2 lrm15 w/artemis and tag and if you do less than 500 dmg 3 kills you should just quit.. Its a joke.

You can get those same results with literally anything in low ranking PUG games. It doesn't mean those stats are worth anything. i.e. all the people posting 800 damage MG scoreboards. It means less than nothing.

[Victor Morson]

Karenai, on 28 June 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

Myth: Easy to use. (Yes, they are easy to use but most people still mess it up)

LRM are not the hardest to use, by a long stretch. They are just different. No other weapon is even remotly comparable to the LRM. They are hard to use correctly. That is a whole different thing.

What is the hardest weapon to use, in your eyes, then?

Karenai, on 28 June 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

Myth: Indirect fire. (Yes, there is indirect fire and yes it is very effective if used right. It takes tonnes of ammo, but it is worth it, most of the time)

Draining a third of your very, very valuable ammo to do chip damage is questionably useful at best, honestly. Indirect hits that are still grouped from TAG are the only ones that are worth their ammo cost.

Karenai, on 28 June 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

Myth: No need for Artemis IV and TAG (Well, you needed Artemis to hit fast mechs. Now you just dont hit them. Because no splash. TAG is must have because of ECM)

And tracking speed. TAG lock time + ECM counter + track speed + grouping bonus makes it a must-have piece of geear for sure.

Karenai, on 28 June 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

PS. Myth: Artemis IV needs line of sight. (Unless they hotfixed it already, which I doubt, because it would be loud in the forums, Artemis IV is broken and does NOT need line of sight at the moment. That is one of the reasons we had the last LRMcalypse. New flight path while without line of sight but WITH Artemis IV bonus made them come straight down into the torso/cockpit+the broken damage.)

I believe this was repaired in the same patch that ended the LRM apocalypse. Artemis definitely does not work without LOS atm.

Karenai, on 28 June 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

You have some very good points, but they lose some coherence on the way. Try streamlining the points. Break the subpoints down into their own Myths or something.

Honestly the main reason I started this thread is I was fighting the same battle in five threads, repeating the same points. I wanted to be comprehensive as possible.