81 replies to this topic

[Ningyo]

workable build, people are right though first thing you need to do is switch to double heatsinks. Also I would either use 2 streak launchers or none, as a single one will do too little damage to be worth holding the missile lock for.

A breakdown of switching to double heatsinks:

Present 16 single heatsinks:
--16 heat dissipation (this will reduce your heat by 16 every 10 seconds, 1.6 per second)
--46 heat threshold (how much maximum heat before you shut down)

Switched to double heatsinks
8 engine heatsinks only (you are required to have 10 so you cannot actually play like this but put it here to compare)
--16 heat dissipation
--46 heat threshold
8 engine + 2 double (minimum you can actually use saves you 6 tons over what you have now
--18.8 heat dissipation
--48.8 heat threshold
8 engine + 8 double heatsinks (same tonnage and number you presently have and you do have space for them barely)
--27.2 heat dissipation
--57.2 heat threshold


This is what I would suggest you work toward changing to first
HBK-4SP
--28.6 heat dissipation
--58.6 heat threshold
--Smurphy's cooling efficiency rating 57%
Speed 81 kph
aside from changing to 2 SSRM has the same loadout of weapons

Your present to compare:

--16 heat dissipation
--46 heat threshold
--Smurphy's cooling efficiency rating 29%
Speed 66.4 kph

Well goodluck hope this helps

Edited by Ningyo, 30 June 2013 - 07:39 AM.

[Koniving]

Ningyo, on 30 June 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Well goodluck hope this helps

I'm very interested in these numbers as the rising threshold system is very abuse worthy with insane back to back alpha strikes. So where are you getting your numbers from?

Edited by Koniving, 30 June 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[scJazz]

Koniving, on 30 June 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

[size=4]

I'm very interested in these numbers as the rising threshold system is very abuse worthy with insane back to back alpha strikes. So where are you getting your numbers from?

Mechromancer shows the dissipation and threshold values

http://mechromancer.wordoflowtax.com/

Is that what you were looking for?

[Koniving]

Thank you.

But...something's off.

Their heat numbers don't make sense.

In fact the per heatsink thing lies if anything or they don't know the difference between capacity (threshold) and dissipation (dispersal of heat, cooling rate). It says the heat capacity of a 1.4 heatsink is -1.40. How can you handle... How can you have a negative number? That's actually the dissipation rate not the capacity.

Meanwhile it says the dissipation rate is 0.14 (trust me if it was we'd take 78 and a half seconds to cool off from 1 ER PPC).

Now if those were flipped, say dissipation at 1.4 and capacity (threshold) at 0.14 per double heatsink... then it makes some sense.

Edited by Koniving, 30 June 2013 - 08:43 AM.

[Hebdomas]

Marcobra, on 30 June 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

Sorry I misspoke. I meant the quad AC5s with double MLs, http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8b3cdaa7839490f
With this configuration I find myself hanging back and staying on my toes to avoid overheating in thick combat but it seems very effective at mid-close range.

Any reason for the ammo in the arms? You're using an XL might as well put it in a side torso, unless I'm missing something.

[scJazz]

Koniving, on 30 June 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Thank you.

But...something's off.

Their heat numbers don't make sense.

In fact the per heatsink thing lies if anything or they don't know the difference between capacity (threshold) and dissipation (dispersal of heat, cooling rate). It says the heat capacity of a 1.4 heatsink is -1.40. How can you handle... How can you have a negative number? That's actually the dissipation rate not the capacity.

Meanwhile it says the dissipation rate is 0.14 (trust me if it was we'd take 78 and a half seconds to cool off from 1 ER PPC).

Now if those were flipped, say dissipation at 1.4 and capacity (threshold) at 0.14 per double heatsink... then it makes some sense.

It is a GoonApplication... I would not be even slightly surprised if they flipped the descriptions of the Heat Sink values.

[Koniving]

Hebdomas, on 30 June 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Any reason for the ammo in the arms? You're using an XL might as well put it in a side torso, unless I'm missing something.

Crit padding.

In the side torsos just being shot at risks them exploding as some ACs due to not having any crit slots consumed by heatsinks or anything else to absorb the impact.

In the arms there's 8 out of 9 chance per arm that the ammo will not take the crit-slot damage when the armor is stripped, and who strips the armor off an arm?

Edited by Koniving, 30 June 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[Koniving]

On another note: Page 26 of this booklet looks identical to PGI's Hunchback, but has the housing and such removed. Looks like a multi-shot AC with rotating barrels to me.

http://bg.battletech...y%20Booklet.pdf

Hunchbacks are great starter mechs, even more so when the PPC abuse is dealt with.

Edited by Koniving, 30 June 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Just wanna play]

IraqiWalker, on 28 June 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

however the 4X is equipped with jump jets and in this PPC rich meta can be devastating as a sniper.

he means the 3D ^^

Koniving, on 30 June 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

Crit padding.

In the side torsos just being shot at risks them exploding as some ACs due to not having any crit slots consumed by heatsinks or anything else to absorb the impact.

In the arms there's 8 out of 9 chance per arm that the ammo will not take the crit-slot damage when the armor is stripped, and who strips the armor off an arm?

another reason is the ammo explosion will have to go through the arms health first, cushioning the damage if it DOES explode

[Koniving]

Just wanna play, on 30 June 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

he means the 3D ^^

I dunno the context but I'm just being smartA here... He could mean the Raven 4X which has jumpjets and could equip PPCs.

[Ningyo]

OK Double heatsinks that come with your engine provide 2 Heat dissipation and threshold each
Double heatsinks that you add to your engine (275 or above) or separately to your mech provide 1.4 heat dissipation and threshold each

Single heatsinks in engine or separately provide 1 heat dissipation and threshold each.

Your heat threshold starts at 30 and is increased by your heatsinks. If your heat buildup exceeds your threshold, you automatically shutdown.

Your heat dissipation reduces your heat by its value over a 10 second period. so 20 single heatsinks removes 20 heat every 10 seconds, or 2 heat every second.

Did this cover your question or did I miss something?

[Mike Getsome]

Quote

Good Beginner Mech?

Stalker 6PPCs.

[VikingN1nja]

Hunchback 4SP is pretty solid.

[ZeProme]

Koniving, on 28 June 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

I agree with the above. Despite the meta (trend), Cataphracts were designed as ranged fire support mechs so speed would normally never be a big issue.

------------

The Cataphract 4x is ideal for hanging back and shooting at enemies from the front-end of the high ground or out at the end of an open field. Your targets should already be engaged with your allies and your shots should be carefully placed. Even so the 4x can tear down the average Atlas down in 6 to 10 seconds with twin UAC/5s and twin AC/2s (however the heat would most assuredly either shut you down at a crucial moment or back then flat out kill you at precisely 8 seconds).

Unlike the Jagermechs referenced earlier, the Cataphract's frame is sleek with a wide center torso and slimmer side torsos, ensuring you won't die so easily by the weak side torsos that plague both mechs. Even so the side torsos are a great weakness that must be protected. Thankfully the Cataphracts arms are broad enough to catch SRMs and even AC/20 rounds with ease, unlike the Jagermech whose arms could barely catch a laser. Also from the side the Cataphracts arms are broad and consume most of the line of sight, protecting the side torsos fairly well (it's easier to hit the center torso from the side than the side torsos are)! The jagermechs are virtually impossible to miss from the side.

It is important to note that the Cataphract 4x cannot mount PPCs.

The 4x is quite capable, and my custom build runs slower than the default. Vids.

Spoiler

Twin UAC/5 + AC/2 + lasers. Fire support, at the end I brawl.
Twin UAC/5 + AC/2 + lasers. Fire support again, at the end I brawl several lights and heavies by myself and win.
The 5th run as the latest trial Cataphract 4x against the PPC meta (Trend).

---------------------
Cataphract 3D is by far the most superior of the Cataphracts. The combination of speed and firepower is difficult to match, add to that the ability to fly into the air and it's hard not to admire it. This is the only Cataphract I have never used so I can't tell you much about it except it's fun to watch it fall from the sky. Jumpjets are overrated.

---------------------

The Cataphract 1X I find is best as a speed demon. Strangely enough I usually build this up like a Hunchback 4H, Hunchback 4P, or a Dragon. High speed + medium lasers, or speed plus medium lasers plus AC/10. In the case of building it like a Dragon, I slap in the maximum sized XL engine and 5 large lasers; 3 back to back alpha strikes of 45 totals out to 135 damage when it shuts down (provided you can keep your beams focused on one spot) usually kills anything. When it starts back up (after being fully brought through the elite unlocks would be less than 2 seconds), it'll be at less than 80% heat and ready to fire again in an emergency or to run at 86.6 kph.

Whatever its intended design is for, that's what I use it for since my rear-mounted lasers fire forward (damn PGI for doing that) and its my best money maker out of 61 battlemechs. The only flaw is by the time I got the engine, the weapons, the double heatsinks, etc., it cost more than the typical Cataphract 3D build!

Build.

Spoiler

----------------------------------
The Cataphract 2X is ideal for people who can't decide what they like to do. A jack of all trades it can carry a cannon, lasers, and missiles. I'm sure at one point (and Zeprome can link it for me if you'd please) I made an awesome description of it. It's a good balance if you're indecisive.
----------------------------------
The Ilya Muromets is a "Knight" of sorts. The mech's very name comes from a Russian Knight who was renown for his insane strength among other things. (Actually if you read up on him, it's like a Russian medieval version of Chuck Norris with a beard that can put Dumbledore to shame).

It has 3 cannon slots in 3 locations, allowing for builds such as AC/20 + twin AC/10, triple LB-10x, twin Gauss + twin PPC, and more. Its trademark however is triple UAC/5.

These however are two of my three favorite builds. The third is triple AC/2 + twin PPCs.

Spoiler

Finally triple AC/2 + twin PPCs. Skip two minutes in to skip travel time.

All videos are mine. The screenshots are by Lordred of my mechs. For more incredible screenshots of myself and many other people (none are staged; actual combat in random matches) check out the Perfect Screenshot Thread by clicking here or roaming over in fan audio/video.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Just noticed this, my apologies.

Here's the link!

[Koniving]

Holy F-S! Couldn't you just have quoted the part where I said ZeProme could pull out the link? o.O;

*Drowns in his own words!*

But specifically this post.

Koniving, on 23 March 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Played every cataphract except the 3D (including the Muromets).

3-D just has jump jets, and unfortunately will spoil your appetite (never start with the best as the rest become mediocre). My votes are for the 1X and the 2X.

The 1X's high energy concentration allows you to focus less on weight management and more on heat management and demonstrates both the power of energy weapons and the excellence of a single ballistic (for a low heat firing solution while running hot).

The 2X is great because it allows for both a good concentration of energy weapons, while allowing for both a ballistic and missile solution to help balance your capabilities.

That said, I'll tell you right now that No Cataphract is good for a new player. They are designed as an emergency effort by House Liao to construct heavy mechs in 3020 something after losing key factories which limited them to light and medium mechs with a bunch of clunkers. It is designed as a direct fire support mech, NOT a brawler as many foolishly try to use it for and as anyone who thinks "Oooo ballistics" will try.

Its shoulders are wide and easy to disable, making it terrible for XL engines. This typically forces them to be very slow, preventing you from being able to escape should you make a not so bright move.

As such there's little room for mistakes. You screw up, you die, and you'll blame the chassis as many often do. Much the same reason people blame the 2x and 4x Ravens when they fail to perform like the 3-L; it's not because the variants suck. It is because they are not built for the same roles, and the pilot does not have the experience required to know that.

This said... Here is a little bit of advice in case if you use them anyway.

The Cataphract 3-D has a few good roles, one of them being a pop-tarting sniper (think pop-tarts in a toaster that auto-cooks. Pop-tarts go in, they pop when done, and since no one takes them out they go down to pop again and again).

The 1x is a good variant for experimenting with speed. Since you have mostly energy weapons most won't even assume you have an XL engine even when you start out-running catapults. The weapons are super well distributed about the body as well. It could be a direct support, or it could be a light hunter, or an anti-medium to an anti-dragon (my favorite use). Never attack assaults on your own. It's a death wish.

The 2x has a few great support roles but could be used for brawling. An arm-mounted missile launcher can be useful in the long range with twin LRM-5's. I wouldn't put much more than that in there as it takes weight, and with only 4 holes you'll just broadcast your location to snipers and counter-LRM ECM users. LRM-5's also shoot faster than most others and weigh the least. Some use streaks as an anti-light, but that is of no use against ECM users or large enemies. So if you brawl definitely go with standard SRMs. Torso mounted ballistic weapons are a bit limited, however. Only one arm energy weapon causes an issue as well when it comes to long range or super close brawls.

Almost everyone is against the use of the 4x. Lots of ballistic mounts are good, but the 255 engine limitation really hurts its potential. Always pack in some energy and missile support for close range emergencies. Great ranged support mech. Just don't get close as there's no way out when you do, and a 4x always falls at close range.

Muromets. Seems to be everyone's favorite hero mech. Equal parts energy and ballistic allows for some interesting possibilities. Personally I like the Pretty Baby more but I own them all. Muromets is definitely a close second. (Admittedly the PB has an awkward weapon assortment, but like any mech, played to its intended role I haven't had a better money maker since the LRM commando in closed beta; back when every time someone fired LRMs at my target to include myself sported me 2,500 cbills. Nothing like 1,000,000 cbills or more per match with only a 12,000 to 15,000 cbill repair and rearm.)

If you brawl, plan to have an escape route. If you don't have one, don't brawl or you will die. Brawl in urban areas. Stay away in open fields. Treat yourself like a proper Hunchback. Slip in, blast the crap out of them, slip out, come in behind them, wash rinse repeat. Your arms are expendable. Your torso is not. Don't be afraid to throw your arms up in the way. Be weary if your target is stationary; they're aiming for your easy to hit cockpit. MOVE and torso twist. Never attack from the front; you're in a Liao mech.

To overheat is to die. Don't do it; you won't survive the cool down.

If you're not the sort to pump all armor to the front, consider a turtle back manuever with equal armor. Hit someone hard, then whip your back toward them until ready to fire again with everything you have. Brawling should be a last resort, but as big as your torso is this might save your hide.

Don't rush LRMs. You don't stand a chance. There's nothing you can do.

AC-20 enemy? Torso twist. Catch it with an arm, not your gut. Chances are you'll lose a minimum of 50% of your fire power if you do.

Edited by Koniving, 30 June 2013 - 01:14 PM.

[Nefczi]

Hey guys!
Just started playing yesterday, played couple of games so far. Havent decided which mech I will get first. From trial mechs I like Hunch and Catas best and folowing forum advices will probably go for 4SP first. Or maybe one of Cataphracts. Not sure yet.

But wanted to ask If I should get the new mech as soon as I get enough CB and start playign it with "stock" setup or wait, and gather more CB first(how much?) for some upgrades?

[Koniving]

Nefczi, on 30 June 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Hey guys!
Just started playing yesterday, played couple of games so far. Havent decided which mech I will get first. From trial mechs I like Hunch and Catas best and folowing forum advices will probably go for 4SP first. Or maybe one of Cataphracts. Not sure yet.

But wanted to ask If I should get the new mech as soon as I get enough CB and start playign it with "stock" setup or wait, and gather more CB first(how much?) for some upgrades?

Almost everyone will say to upgrade. The very first thing you want is to save 1,500,000 (cbills) more than the purchase price of the mech. This is so you can immediately upgrade for better heat; you'll find the mechs much more playable after doing so even in a stock configuration. Honestly I love playing stock mechs, but only because it's hard as heck with standard heatsinks and the challenge is what makes it fun for me. If you're learning however there's nothing more frustrating than overheating after 2 or 3 shots.

Since you're about to get your own I recommend you read / watch this as it'll teach you how to build it.

Koniving, on 25 June 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

I wish I had my own videos handy but I deleted them some time ago believing that the new user interface would have been here much sooner.


Keep in mind the entire interface will be changing within two months.
Note that this video is outdated.

Sigh, had tips on the Artemis, double heatsinks, etc. but MWO ate them. Get double heatsinks, Artemis makes your missiles more accurate at the cost of weight; remember strip your missiles and put them back on or you'll have no ammo if you go into a match -- it's a bug. Use endo steel on anything lighter than an assault mech especially if it uses ballistics or missiles. Ferro sucks.

Enjoy! (I hate writing long helpful things and the forum just eating them as if I did nothing.)

The info's slightly outdated. Upgrades are now handled by a 5th icon on the right with a plus on it. That holds your double heatsinks, endo-steel, etc.

Edited by Koniving, 30 June 2013 - 01:20 PM.

[Just wanna play]

Nefczi, on 30 June 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Hey guys!
Just started playing yesterday, played couple of games so far. Havent decided which mech I will get first. From trial mechs I like Hunch and Catas best and folowing forum advices will probably go for 4SP first. Or maybe one of Cataphracts. Not sure yet.

But wanted to ask If I should get the new mech as soon as I get enough CB and start playign it with "stock" setup or wait, and gather more CB first(how much?) for some upgrades?

start playing it stock frst, reason one being it helps to teach you to manage heat better and do to slow speed also teaches you better positioning and more importantly it helps you decide what you like and dont like about the stock build and then upgrade i accordingly

so kon looks like we have a bit of a disagreement here.....

Edited by Just wanna play, 30 June 2013 - 01:23 PM.

[Koniving]

Just wanna play, on 30 June 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

so kon looks like we have a bit of a disagreement here.....

Not really. I agree a lot can be learned from standard heatsinks, but the PPC meta isn't the place to learn good heat management; any new player is already screwed as it is! After the balance fixes maybe, however I won't throw a new player to the wolves in standard heatsinks when the wolves are carrying twin ER PPC + gauss rifles.

Mind everyone that stock builds are very valid and capable, in a trial 4x playing pug (by myself with a team of uncoordinated people also randomly thrown in) I've taken out three mechs back to back to include a fairly fresh Atlas after losing my side torso to missiles some time before. With cannons you can manage well but with energy and missile weapons you suffer quite a bit.

Versus the instant gratification and low weight of PPCs and our high ability to repeatedly alpha strike, however, a player that's just learning needs to focus a little more on things like surviving and fighting (as well as fun) than watching his poor heat bar in standard heatsinks. Humility, patience, and carefully timed shots can come later as a skill building exercise.

After all our new players have a while yet before they experience the horrors of of being the victim of a lariat (video in link watch for 20 or so seconds to see it. It's a clothesline, where a mech charges at you full speed with his arm extended to knock you on the ground and blast you to death while you're struggling to get on your feet), or the Raven 4X drop kick followed by the AC/20 to the cockpit, or many other things. Damn do I miss those days! Can't wait for the "main game" community warfare to finally come out so that the tech team can focus on fixing the problems with knockdowns and bring them back! I miss what Awesomes did best -- bulldoze through Atlases as if they were stacks of paper! Back then nothing was more terrifying (before discovering the oversized head hitbox at the time) than an Awesome 9M charging at you at 86 kph as it knocks down two or three Atlases in a row!!! I can't WAIT to do that again it was so much damn fun!

Until then or until the next balance tweak, the deadliest thing any player can face is aside from my ROFLPULT (which I do believe you designed), is a plethora of PPCs from 800 meters away providing instantaneous death, so our new guys just cannot afford to be stuck in place learning the humble wait of a cool down from his or her 4 medium laser alpha strike, when enemies can get away with twin back to back alpha strikes of 6 ER PPCs.

Edit: Video link provided for being a victim of an Atlas's lariat!

Edited by Koniving, 30 June 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[Just wanna play]

hmm well i wouldnt really call ppcs "lightweight" ppcs have the same damage to tonnage ratio as an ac20 (minus ammo weight) AND have same rate of fire while being super hot, the biggest disadvantage of the ballistics weapons class is tonnage to damage ratio but they have best heat to damage ratio for the most part (well aside from i believe lrm20s they do 2 more dmg for same heat) so the ppc has the disadvantages of ballistic weapons AND energy weapons while really only having advantage of a mix of alpha damage and range, so lets be honest are the ppcs really them selves that dangerous or is it the shear numbers that they are employed in causing the problem?

for those begginers wondering about pros and cons of each weapon class



Energy:
Always have ammo, they are like salt, a few of it can increase satisfaction without causing much of a gain in weight calories but to much and you run into some health and overheating problems
Pros:
Highest Damage to tonnage ratio (aside from ppc)
larger ones have very good max effective range
unlimited ammo

Cons:
Bigger weapons tend to cause bigger tonnage problems compared to smaller lasers, large and ppc especially, hurting scalability
Most take time to do damage
HIghest amount of heat for damage done, overall hottest types of weapons
Quicker Damage drop off then ballistics, max range is twise effective range so they loss their damage twise as fast as ballistic weapons

Missiles (both srm lrm and streaks):
IMO made and fairly well balanced for boating to turn you mech into walking artillery

Pros:
splash damage
Scalability, bigger lrm launchers dont cause a HUGE sacrifices in heat and tonnage compared to smaller lrm launchers, and the bigger the srm launcher the less heat per missile fired
in the case of lrms and streaks, accuracy, they are server controlled so hit detection bugs have a hard time affecting them
usually better damage per ton of ammo then ballistics
provide cockpit shake and are somewhat effective for destroying internals
lrms have longest effective range in game

Cons:
overall accuracy, due to spread larger salvos from lrm15 and up ad srm4 and srm 6 tend to hit more then one limb, Artemis helps but not enough sometimes, splash inst really active right now
have launcher restrictions meaning certain mechs cant fire all of the missiles from certain launchers all at once, requires careful picking of chassis
only weapon type with a counter measure that can destroy your round preventing it from doing damage
dont offer perfect control on flight path...
"ha damage drop off?"dont make me laugh, the missile just explode at a certain range, also flight path can make effective range less the you think
ammo might turn on you
everyone hates you for having "no skill" just ignore them

Ballistics:
nothing special on paper, but once in a mechs design they work very well
Pros:
Decent Heat to damage done ratio, or often best heat to damage ratio in their damage class
offer all of their damage instantly, ac20 does damage of 2 large laser and a small laser all at once
damage drop off, max range is triple effective range, meaning ballistic loss damage half as fast as energy weapons
cockpit shake!!
might not be the lightest weapon but they are often the best single weapons due to be so all around when it comes to range firepower heat etc...

Cons:
ammo can explode
heavy
bigger ones have slower projectiles then energy weapons
somewhat less damage per ton of ammo as missiles (some are equal to srms others are slightly less
accuracy is pinpoint meaning if you miss what you intended to hit you have to wait for weapon to reload to try again so no correcting aim like with laserz
did i mention needs ammo to be useful?

Edited by Just wanna play, 30 June 2013 - 03:50 PM.