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I Feel A Little Bad For The Thunderbolt


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#1 Lyoncet

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:59 PM

The Thunderbolt is a cool, iconic 'Mech. I like the 5S loadout, I like how it looks, and I like how it feels. I really look forward to playing it.

But there's a problem. And that problem is called the Battlemaster.

According to One Medic Army's engine optimization chart, the 65-ton Thunderbolt thrives in the 295-310 range (excluding the 305). There, it will go between 81 and 85 km/h after speed tweak, with between 37 and 34 tons with endo-steel. I won't go into XL engines since it looks like a very broad 'Mech, and if you want a non-jump-jet light heavy you have the Dragon.

Then we can look at the Battlemaster. As an 85-tonner, 325-340 are its most efficient engines, with a speed range of 68 km/h to 71 km/h. That leaves between 52 and 46.5 tons with endo-steel. To reach the Thunderbolt's speeds, you'd need to go up to a 385 standard, for 81 km/h with the tweak. That means 30 free tons, 7 fewer than you'd have with the same speed on the Thunderbolt. So that's good; there's a niche for the Thunderbolt.

The thing is that you can't just look at the engine chart. There's the hitboxes to take into account, and the all-important hardpoints. That's good; it gives different chassis and variants ways of differentiating themselves. But that's really the crux of the problem. The Thunderbolt's hardpoints are nearly identical to the Battlemaster, but it gains one missile hardpoint at the cost of 3 (high mounted) energy hardpoints.

What does this mean overall? Well, not that there's no point to the Thunderbolt compared to the Battlemaster. If you want to cruise at low to mid 80s km/h, that's what it's there for. The problem is that that's about it. That's pretty much the whole niche: going 81-85 km/h. You can't really push it any faster since the engine maxes out, and at any lower speed, the Battlemaster just looks better in about every way. If you're not running a 300 engine, you're pretty much doing it wrong. That clamps down on creativity, and diversity. And are those 12-14 km/h really going to be worth losing 100+ armor, 15 tons of space, and almost half your energy hardpoints?

I know it's too early to judge, since we don't know quirks, pitch/yaw range/speed, missile tube size, etc. And if SRMs become good again, the extra hardpoint and likely larger tube size would go a long ways toward giving the Thunderbolt a definite role. Or maybe they'll change 'Mech scaling, and there will be a bigger size difference between weight classes. But barring major balance changes, or a really spectacular quirk, it seems like the Battlemaster confines the Thunderbolt to such a small piece of real estate as to make it usually a sub-par pick. Which I find sad, because I tend to like the mid-sized 'Mechs and this looks like a fun chassis.

I also know this is in part because of the current meta's inherent bias toward heavier 'Mechs over lighter ones, and that if they introduced some sort of weight balancing this would be less of a concern. But it would still have the problem of being a slightly faster but much weaker Battlemaster. Does anyone else get this impression? Anyone feel like they could convince me otherwise? I'd really appreciate that, actually. :)

#2 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 05:19 PM

the point being one is a Heavy Mech, the other is an Assault?

And the heavy is almost guaranteed to have better movement, twist rate, arm reflex, etc. Because you can't just go on Engine Rate OR Hardpoints......

#3 One Medic Army

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 05:49 PM

I feel all warm and tingly people are actually getting some use out of that Engine/Tonnage efficiency chart.

That said, I'm inclined to agree with Bishop, the advantage of the Thunderbolt is in that little bit of extra speed as well as the extra twist speed/arm speed/etc... that come with.

Since the Battlemaster is going to come with 7 Energy, 1 Missile, and 2 Ballistic hardpoints in addition to the large engine cap you can bet that PGI is going to give it some pretty severe negative quirks as well, which we can't account for yet.

#4 Lyoncet

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:01 PM

View PostOne Medic Army, on 01 July 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

That said, I'm inclined to agree with Bishop, the advantage of the Thunderbolt is in that little bit of extra speed as well as the extra twist speed/arm speed/etc... that come with.


I guess not being that familiar with heavies and assaults, I may be underestimating the twist and maneuverability advantages of smaller chassis. Then again, I don't think I've ever heard someone say they run a Cataphract over an Atlas because of the better acceleration; they usually do it for the hardpoints. And I get the feeling that if you could strap 3 UAC/5 onto an Atlas the Muromets would disappear pretty quickly.

#5 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:03 PM

View PostLyoncet, on 01 July 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:


I guess not being that familiar with heavies and assaults, I may be underestimating the twist and maneuverability advantages of smaller chassis. Then again, I don't think I've ever heard someone say they run a Cataphract over an Atlas because of the better acceleration; they usually do it for the hardpoints. And I get the feeling that if you could strap 3 UAC/5 onto an Atlas the Muromets would disappear pretty quickly.


Oh there is a HUGE difference in turn rates and such. Though the Phract has had arm reflex issues (don't know if they ever fixed those).

There is a reason the real good pilots are able to make "obsolete" Mediums compete. Better mobility trumps weapon mass, in good hands.

#6 Sephlock

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:07 PM

On the other hand it has the top of a Summoner. All it needs is a hero version that has no hand actuators, with energy hardpoints in one arm and ballistic hardpoints in the other!

#7 One Medic Army

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:11 PM

View PostLyoncet, on 01 July 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

I guess not being that familiar with heavies and assaults, I may be underestimating the twist and maneuverability advantages of smaller chassis. Then again, I don't think I've ever heard someone say they run a Cataphract over an Atlas because of the better acceleration; they usually do it for the hardpoints. And I get the feeling that if you could strap 3 UAC/5 onto an Atlas the Muromets would disappear pretty quickly.

It's pretty much a direct factor of mech speed.
The tonnage and engine of a mech directly influence the twist speed, turn speed, acceleration, deceleration, and arm speed of the mech. This is one of the reasons why Assaults tend to put in big engines, it's not just to fit more DHS, it's also for the increased maneuverability that allows them to combat smaller and faster mechs.


Also, directly comparing both high and low end efficient Std engines gives us this:
310 with 65tons 76.4kph (18% faster)
340 with 85tons 64.8kph

295 with 65tons 73.5kph (19% faster)
325 with 85tons 61.9kph

#8 Ranek Blackstone

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:25 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 01 July 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

the point being one is a Heavy Mech, the other is an Assault?

And the heavy is almost guaranteed to have better movement, twist rate, arm reflex, etc. Because you can't just go on Engine Rate OR Hardpoints......


There are also plans to look into a max tonnage per drop for CW matches, so the lighter mechs will see more usage when the whole team CAN'T bring assaults to the party.

#9 Finn McShae

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:32 PM

Interesting ideas. I also feel a bit for the TBolt but its not because of the BLR. I think the difference in weight and supposed dropship weight as well as hard point layouts (I think of the BLR as more of a brawler while the TBolt is a good trooper/support).

My sadness for the Tbolt is the Orion and a lesser extent the Jagermech. Its stuck between them and it will probably have some issues finding a niche that they don't already fill. Especially the Orion since it will have similar hardpoints, should have similar speed and will probably be smaller (knowing PGI :) ).

I hope, in compensation, they make the Tbolt really short and stout, to give it a different profile.

I'm pretty excited for it regardless, and I plan on mastering crap out of it. Likely first of the Phoenix, then Shadowhawk, then maybe Locust. Battlemaster will probably be last.

#10 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:49 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 01 July 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

the point being one is a Heavy Mech, the other is an Assault?

And the heavy is almost guaranteed to have better movement, twist rate, arm reflex, etc. Because you can't just go on Engine Rate OR Hardpoints......


This!!

And to take it a bit further. I don't understand why everyone always needs/wants to go fast. One of my most successful mechs for a time was a Centurion with the stock...YES I SAID STOCK...200 std engine. 64 kp/h was plenty to keep up with and support the Assault and Heavy mechs and by not tweeking the speed up I could focus on firepower and heat managment to put out a maximum, sustained fire on targets without too much worry of heat issues.

Basically there is no reason why you can run stock speeds and be competitive at 65 tons by maximizing your firepower and heat management abilites.

#11 Finn McShae

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:59 PM

View PostViktor Drake, on 01 July 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:


This!!

And to take it a bit further. I don't understand why everyone always needs/wants to go fast. One of my most successful mechs for a time was a Centurion with the stock...YES I SAID STOCK...200 std engine. 64 kp/h was plenty to keep up with and support the Assault and Heavy mechs and by not tweeking the speed up I could focus on firepower and heat managment to put out a maximum, sustained fire on targets without too much worry of heat issues.

Basically there is no reason why you can run stock speeds and be competitive at 65 tons by maximizing your firepower and heat management abilites.


I agree. With heavies and most Mediums if I can go somewhere in the mid 70's with speed tweeak, its usually good enough for me.

#12 Sephlock

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:16 PM

View PostViktor Drake, on 01 July 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

I don't understand why everyone always needs/wants to go fast.
That endless run of Alpine and Tourmaline almost killed me. That alone was enough to condition me to favor fast builds... and then there's the fact that there are plenty of situations where it's best to get the heck out of dodge...

Edited by Sephlock, 01 July 2013 - 07:17 PM.


#13 Johnny Reb

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:28 PM

I also think this mech looks doa, Same tonnage as Cats and Jags with nothing to separate it! Plus huge target!

Edited by Johnny Reb, 01 July 2013 - 09:29 PM.


#14 Zordicron

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:05 PM

Arm actuators separate it. Cats and Jags dont get arm reflex because of no actuators.
Eh, I think it will have it's place. I mean anyway, eventually they are going to try to put like "everything" so far as mechs go in game, so obviously not every single one will be able to have a niche. Cosmetics will come into play eventually. T-bolt is one of the 2 mechs in phoenix I am pumped about, and number one on my list to mess with when released.

#15 Sephlock

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:45 PM

IT HAS A SUMMONER TOP! WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!

SUMMONER

TOP

END OF DISCUSSION!

#16 DarkDevilDancer

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:02 AM

Well I for one run a big std engine in my assaults because stomping along at sub 50 with speed tweek is bleeding painful.

As a rule XL in an assault is suicide but most heavies can get away with it, people might go after that missile pod though much like the hunchback making side torsos an issue.

#17 Ralgas

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:18 AM

Not to mention at some point dropship mode, where a 65 tonner will probably be around optimal weight->firepower if you want to take 3+ mechs out.





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